I agree with Fatah that some body just threw this question nad tried to win the sympathy of people.
Zainab
Even if she is real Do u really think that she is innocents. She started her sexual relationship at the age of 13 and even at the age of 17 she is still continuing that and she is so proud of it that she is announcing it over the internet. Please don't be fool.
Those who are trying to defend her, would they behave the same if someone from their own family member (daughter or sister, brother, or son) do this act ?
I don't think so.
No matter how we try or show to be broad minded , when the things like this comes up we behave almost the same.
Amin:
I agree with your that some one (may be a naughty boy who made all of us fool) started this thread to enjoy his/her sense of humer to make others wonder.
Because the total posts from that name is just ONE and no one see that person again on this forum. So He/She gave me a great lesson that next time before writing inresponse to any thread, I should think twice about the writer.
*I am a jeweler, I set the significance of the jewels and throw the insignificant into the trash, these are my Quality Standards*
[This message has been edited by msaqibj (edited February 22, 1999).]
Misbah must be terrified by this crossfire. One advice for you girl: Learn from the mistakes of others, cause you will not live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself.
Later on
Zman
well even if there is no Misbah, there are a lot of kids and adults for that reason, whose concepts are not clear.
Amin
she is not proud of what she has done, she needs help and she is aware of it that is why she asked. If my daughter or sister comes up to me after committing such a sin, i will definitely be mad but will not abandon her. Infact at this point she needs someone understanding. Besides u may be able to stop her by force but will not be able to change her views.
This is very basic islam and in my view point her parents failed to educate her. Hence she is innocent. Why shouldnt i sympathize with her?
The other thing is that she never mentioned that she had sex with her boyfriend so better think before jumping to such conclusions.
Its interesting , how a topic like this, brings out emotional responses in people...
It does not matter if this is posted by a real person or not,,like Zainab said, it is a very important issue , that needs to be discussed.
Amin ,
It may come as a surprise to you ,,,but when I read the post , I felt its my daughter asking me this question..actually initially giving me a chill in the spine.....but i would respond to her exactly as I did to Misbah.
Fatah ,
Yes it is a social issue.....repeating the word Haram 50 million times doesnt make it any more convincing than ,,,voice of reason.
We are used to the cultural double standards,,which may work fine for pakis in pakistan , cause otherwise they will either live in guilt , or rejected by the narrow minded society ...but kids growing up in different cultures , where freer sexual practices are the norm , dont have the guilt, and will only listen to love and reason...
you go to jail for forcefully stoping the kids...or lose them to DHS ,if you throw them out or dont fulfil their needs .
Try to read between the lines , this is a kid who doesnt know the difference between islamic , and cultural influences...your interpratation of this as a challenge to islamic law, is a long shot , and only shows your own sensitivity to this subject .
Precisely Nova.....
I agree totally...it doesn't matter whether this is a real person or not...the situation is real.
Like it or not it does happen and we need to address questions like these as a society.
Thank you Nova.
Muzna G,
We should not only discuss it but also find the solution for it.
It is not what you preach, what you practice that makes you Muslim.
Does not matter how many times we tell our youngesters to pray or read Quran or follow other Islamic teachings, we will face a simple question from them. DO YOU PRACTICE MR.PREACHER?And that is the point where the whole problem lies. Trust me on that.
yes sultan u are soooo right. This is really true in this part of the world where the children's only source of islamic education is their parents. They dont have no teachers, friends, TV or Islamiyat classes (remember 'em)to give the message. So the parents have a big responsibilty.
Yes it is true Zainab.
Like they say "Actions speak louder than words" or " One picture says thousand words"or "seeing is beleiving" they all giving the same message let your actions speak.
An example:
Like somebody joins army he has to follow the rules and regulations of army without any ifs and buts, because he is there because of his choice not by force.
Same for Islam we accepted it by choice not by force. So instead of criticizing Islam we should first follow it thoroughly and compeletly in the way it should be. Because it is like a student who does not even open the book nor does his homework but complains that oh! this sbject is so hard I do not understand why this chapter is even in here or what is the purpose of theaching this or I think I should make some changes in this book, or the teacher is not good blah blah. Well you know whose fault is this. Indeed it is not easy to follow Islam it takes wisdom to accept it, courage to practice it, and patience to tolerate all the difficulties and hardships. Do you have what it takes to be a Muslim? Ofcourse you do all you have is to use it. So do it without any ifs ands or buts.
Sultan
After reading all the discussion, let me answer this directly to Misbah:
There is nothing "wrong to make love to someone you love", the only problem is, if you claim to be a Muslim then other Muslims have the right to criticize any action or behavior of fellow Muslims (Boy or Girl) which is in direct violation of Islamic teaching, in other words "Rules and Regulations of Islam."
For example: If an individual is a member of an organization, and want to use the name of the organization with his or her name then that person has to follow the rules and regulation of that organization, otherwise, other members will not like it and may criticize the act and if violation persisted then ultimately that member might loose the membership.
Same thing is here, If you want to practice some thing which is non-Islamic and forbidden by the Allah (not by anyone else) then the majority of Muslims will not gonna like it and you will face criticism.
They are particularly very sensitive about anything, which has to do with extra marital sex or any relationship, which has any potential for this.
But don't worry you have few options
1) Tell them (other Muslims) that you were born in a Muslim family but you are not a believer and you have nothing to do with Islam or its strict rules, (I am free and I will do whatever I feel like doing), I think after that they will stop bugging you, although majority of them will still feel bad about you and your attitude.
2) If you are not yet prepare to go that far, then just ignore them and keep doing whatever you feel like doing (as majority of people like you do) you will still be a Muslim, at least by name, with lots of SIN, and has to face lots of criticism day in and day out..!!
If this 2nd option is also is also difficult, and you couldn't swallow this as well and want the fellow Muslims to endorse your practice, behavior and believes, then I am sorry to say that, they could not do this, not because they don't want to but because they do not have the authority, only Allah has the Authority and he has already given us the "strict guidelines".
The final option is nothing but the adherence to the rules and regulations (Islamic teaching) as many others have told you to do in their own ways, and I have nothing to add.
You are a grownup person and you will be the only one responsible for you acts and deeds. If you want to be a Muslim, then at least try to be a good one. (No body is perfect but we could try)
At last, Yes "being Muslim is tough", real tough...! Decision is yours.
"Ye to mun chalay ka souda hay, khatta ya meetha"
Few words for administrator: don't you think there is lots of serious discussion on Islam, Islamic law and Islamic teaching and in general this topic has generated a kind of religious discussion in this thread, what happen to your ZERO TOLERANCE, have you reverted your decision or finally realizes that it is difficult to separate religion from general discussion...! I will be waiting to your comments.
Whoever you are listen to this:::
Whatever you say and do but as a Muslim do not say anything wrong about Islam. Islam was, is, and will always be the best religion on the face on Universe and Islamic Rules are the best in defining an excellent life bondries and way to live.........
Aadmi !
Good to hear from you, after a long pause. I thought you have also given up in this site like uicdoc did. I think he was either a very sahreef insaan or a very weak person who could not face the odds.
I agree with you that if we claim to be a muslim then we have to follow it. I also agree with your other assertions.
But let me talk to some other people here.
Zainab !
You questioned my interpetation of Misbah relationship here. You think this is not sexual relationship. I am sorry but you are very naieve. Just go back to her own words and see whts she has written
"....i have been dating my boyfriend who is white for almost 3 years...... Why is it wrong to make love to someone you love....."
Everybody who has been living in USA knows whats the meaning of DATING OF BOY AND GIRL especially for three years.
She herself admits that she makes love with him.
Zainab ! In this society' making love' is the sugar coated words for having sex. Everybody knows that.
I am sorry to be so open and direct, but I had to do that avoid confusions.
Sorry,
I think I clicked it twice.
[This message has been edited by Fatah (edited February 25, 1999).]
Now I want to talk to NOVA & Muzna.
Nova !
I read your postings and I read it several times. Your writings were convincing and was making lots of sense. I think you have good heart and a good head on your shoulder.
But we are missing several points here. I think they need to beaddressed.
This discussion was started by a 16 years old girl. Real or fabricated ? May be doesn't matter. The issues are real. But what are those issues.
First of all we need to be sure what we are talking about.
Are we talking about the attitude of the our pakistani society (Iwill call it more precisely, eastern society) the way they treat boys and girls on some similar issues ?
Are we talking about the social and cultural conflicts which our younger generation has to face in our society generally and in this American society specially.?
Are we talking about the intolerance of our society to accept certain acts and deeds on the basis of
a) Islamic teachings
b) Social and cultural barriers and/or
c) both.
or simply
Are we addressing the issue that why in Islam this illegitimate relationship is not allowed and why there is punishment when we have so many wrong things going on this society ?
All these question are different and by themselves raise many separate issues. All these issues are important and needs further and separate discussions.
However, I am very surprised to see some of the writings in which they are supporting the above mentioned act of Misbah by intermingling and confusing it with the above issues. I am specially surprised the way you are endorsing that ' poor confused girl' who is dating with a boy for three years without feeling a guilt. She is not confused neither ignorant. It seems that she knows what she is talking about. She does not appear to be ashamed off on her act and does not seem to ready to quiet it. She does not come to say " I know I am doing wrong but please help me." But in fact she is trying to confuse us by making it an issue of dating BOYS vs GIRLS , dating DESI BOYs vs WHITE BOYS. . And finally she ends up by telling us that if somebody or a society does not endorse her act or this act then it means that that person or that society is living in stone age.
The way you are trying to help her is not appropriate because it is conveying a wrong message to her and to lots of our youngster who are reading this thread. You are justifying this act on the basis of prevailing social and cultural conflicts and confusions which we are facing here this US society and others are facing in our eastern society.
In my next thread, Insha Allah, I will discuss in detail about this confusions and conflicts .
The bottom line over here is
"If something is wrong its wrong. A crime is a crime. It does.nt matter who does it and when does it and under what circumstances somebody commits it.
TWO WRONG THINGS DO NOT MAKE THE THIRD WRONG THING RIGHT."
Dear Fatah
I was not questioning ur interpretation of her relationship. I meant that it can be a possibility because she hasnt mentioned any thing very clearly. I apologize if that offended u...just didnt use the right words.
Now look at what she said:
"..i have been dating my boyfriend who is white for almost 3 years and
my parents does not have a clue. Why is it wrong to make love to someone you love..."
she says she's been dating and her parents dont know. Than in the next sentence she asks a question abt making luv.
Do u understand what i am trying to say.
Anyways this is not really important.
I very well know that this is a big sin in Islam. BUt we r not talking abt mine or your knowledge abt Islam.
we are talking abt this person who is not at all sure abt the difference of this issue regarding culture and religion. She is a muslim by birth but culturally her views are very different.
At this point it will be of no use to explain her religion. And this issue is not only a religious issue anyways in this case.
My personal believe is that if you are ignorant abt something which is a sin, and u do not realize it, u will not be punished. Allah is merciful. Yeah it is our duty to make her realize but in a way which she understands.
So my whole point is that we are no one to judge her and talk to her in the manner some ppl did.
Fateh
I believe misbah's point is more a cultural/societal question, not a religious.
It is obvious islamicaly having a boyfriend/pre-marital sex is wrong.
However...her question brings up an issue in our society. MEn are allowed the freedom to date and "play the field" while women are not.
This is unfair. However, a fact of our societies.
WHy are men excused?
Is it because men can't control their emotions and desires.
Or is it, men can do what they want, because we live in male-dominated societies?
kashmirigirl and zainab, you did it...!!, kiya khnay aap kay , wahh sahab wahh, ye hoyi na baat..!!
You have proven yourself to be progressive and cultured people who have lots of tolerance and talent. You people could do any thing in this world, you have lots of potentials, and you have reminded me of "Bill Clinton and his lawyers."
The way you separate Religion and Culture is not only amazing but also an eye opening experience for me. Waoo...! I am speechless.
Religion and culture are two different things, and they could have two different standard and values and could exist at the same time in one society....!
If something is wrong according to religion then instead of condemning it, make it a social and culture issue...!! Very clever.
I hope you are expressing these kinds of ideas just for show how different people could see thing in different ways and to initiate new discussions., and not as your believes
Fatah, I fully agree with your views, and you deserve congratulation, Nice job keep it up
ThankYOU Admi!!!!!!
Do not hesitate to keep discussing the same thing over and over again!!
But i dont know...since u guys have already labeled me as naive right?
Anyways getting late for school....will answer all ur compliments :)
Zainab
I am terribly sorry if I offend you, when I said you are naieve.
It does not mean that you do not have brain,
it does not mean that you can not have ideas,
it does not mean that whatever you are saying is wrong.I apologize if you get some thing like this out of it. But Please do not insist on that Misbah never meant that she was maintaining sexual relationship with a white girl. I explained to you very clearly. Every body who is discussing this thread here, knows that this fact and thats exactly we are discussing here.
In islam and in our society this relationship is not accepted and is not considered appropriate no matter it involves a male or a female.
Please don't say that in Islam or even in our society men (or boys) are allowed to have illegal sexual relationship with a women. Whic society or which religion you are talking about who has this dicremination ?.
Kasmiri Girl !
I do think and I do feel that this society is a male dominated society and male-dictated society.Over here male (or boys ) have lots of advantages and have the ways where they can get out of it. While being a female (or the girl) it is very difficult to do the same thing. This society has different standard for the female and for the male and most of the time these standards are in the disadvantage for female.
But is this the ISSUE we are discussing here, in this thread ? If thats the case then I should stop writing here because my feelings are not diffrent from rest of the others.
But I think we are discussing a very diffrent topic here. We are talking about some of the very bad things. We are talking about sexual relationship between a boy and a girl before the marriage or extra marital affairs. Please do not link this issue with issue of gender discrimination.
Another thing is that this dirimination between boys and girls and men and women are not just restricted to our Pakistani or Eastern Society as the impression bein given by some of the postings here. This is so rampant and so wide that it involves the whole world and every society. Who can say that IN USA women are not being singled out in every way of our life. Who can say that this American Society or Western Society is not a male dominated one.Only the forms and shapes are changed, otherwise women are being exploited very where in every society. Do the women of this American society are being treated equally with the men here ?
Of courese not.
Then why all blames to our society.? then why all weapons are being thrown towards Eastern (or Pakistani) society.?
Dear Fatah
Apologies accepted LOL
no i was not offended...just felt like this diccussion has become an argument for the sake of an argument.
I did not want to prove that she didnt have sex. All i said was that there can be a possibility that she was not involved in a sexual relationship and maybe she's just asking a question.
I do not intend to make this a men vs women issue either. it has nothing to do with this.
We r talking abt the society in which Misbah lives i.e UK.
In this case the culture is different than religion. I have not supported her actions but gave a reason for why she would have done that. And i am repeating this thing again that we ar not talking abt ur or mine beliefs but misbah's. Our standpoint is different than her's.
And of course there is no doubt that this relationship is wrong. The only thing is to make her realise which is hard to do so as it looks from her posting. she is confused.