Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

It is science that tells me every trend has a set of parameters that make it work within ... For example Newtonian physics breaks down in sub-atomic scales ... as with anything being stretched ... after the elastic limit will be the plastic region but that will not last forever it will break ...

All I am saying is that if evolution is true and Intelligent Design is true and Scriptures are true about us being the Best of Creation then the one position that satisfies all of these is that ... the limit of evolution ends with us ... the elastic will break if it tries to get stretched any further ... and this makes sense that in a given number of genes there are a limited number of arrangements ... we cannot get infinity out of a limited set of parameters ...

And of course my motivations are philosophically orientated ... not just science which is a tool and a subset of philosophy ... You call it religiously motivated but that term means something else to me. You have a good opinion of me and I of you ... Peace

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Totally wrong..

Hybrids my be fertile fully capable of reproduction.. and hybridization is not always induced by humans..

Hybrids in nature

Hybridisation between two closely related species is actually a common occurrence in nature but is also being greatly influenced by anthropogenic changes as well.[17] Hybridization is a naturally occurring genetic process where individuals from two genetically distinct populations mate.[18] As stated above, it can occur both intraspecifically, between different distinct populations within the same species, and interspecifically, between two different species. Hybrids can be either sterile/not viable or viable/fertile.** This affects the kind of effect that this hybrid will have on its and other populations that it interacts with.[19] Many hybrid zones are known where the ranges of two species meet, and hybrids are continually produced in great numbers. These hybrid zones are useful as biological model systems for studying the mechanisms of speciation (Hybrid speciation).** Recently DNA analysis of a bear shot by a hunter in the North West Territories confirmed the existence of naturally-occurring and fertile grizzly–polar bear hybrids.**[20] There have been reports of similar supposed hybrids, but this is the first to be confirmed by DNA analysis. In 1943, Clara Helgason described a male bear shot by hunters during her childhood. It was large and off-white with hair all over its paws. The presence of hair on the bottom of the feet suggests it was a natural hybrid of Kodiak and Polar bear.

Now if you are really honest and will honor your words from your previous post, must accept this as a strong indication of evolution.. You said (read the bold letters)

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

I’ll like to see the viable hybrids and whether they are different species or the same … but of a different genus … Also, the fact that there are two different gene pools does not satisfy my main issue with this experiment. Evolution is only with a single gene pool … If we apply hybridization then evolution can’t answer its basic question … in order to have two different gene pools somewhere down the line one gene pool would need to have split … I want to see evidence of that … not the reverse.

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Intra-specie hybrids are always a new specie.. incapable of mating with one or both parent species.. In fact you have come down to the typical opposition.. that you can accept microevolution, but can not accept macroevolution. All these typical discussions by religionist have been well countered by biologist. It’s a total misconception that there is no evidence for single pool speciation.. it has been observed many times, and is merely a latest attempt by you to just misguide the readers…

You said if I can show you fertile hybrids you will consider it an indication of evolution.. you are back tracking again.. any way..

You are completely ignoring the foot prints I showed you in the light of Mendel’s principle.. The example of common ancestry in that light ..

I’ll come to single gene pool speciation also giving you strong foot prints in that direction, but let me finish this hybridization foot print.** I am awaiting your answer to the fact that why you have back tracked from your previous position of fertile hybrids.. (as an indication of evolution)..** why hybrid speciation with fertile outcomes with genes from parent species be totally discounted as a strong evidence.. hybridization also occurs naturally to conserve species as a survival tool.. for every practical reason natural hybridization is a part of evolution of one specific kind.. where successful fertile speciation occurs.. survival is one of the strong motivation of evolution :

Introduced species and habitat fragmentation
Humans have been introducing species world wide to environments for a long time both directly such as establishing a population to be used as a biological control and indirectly such as accidental escapes of individuals out of agriculture. This causes drastic global affects on various populations with hybridization being one of the reasons introduced species can be so detrimental.[19][22] When habitats become broken apart, one of two things can occur, genetically speaking. The first is that populations that were once connected can be cut off from one another, preventing their genes from interacting. Occasionally, this will result in a population of one species breeding with a population of another species as a means of surviving such as the case with the red wolves. Their population numbers being so small, they needed another means of survival. Habitat fragmentation also led to the influx of generalist species into areas where they would not have been, leading to competition and in some cases interbreeding/incorporation of a population into another. In this way, habitat fragmentation is essentially an indirect method of introducing species to an area.

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Objections to evolution have been raised since evolutionary ideas came to prominence in the 19th century.[1] When Charles Darwin published his 1859 book On the Origin of Species, his theory of evolution by natural selection initially met opposition from alternate scientific theories, but came to be overwhelmingly accepted by the scientific community.** The observation of evolutionary processes occurring, as well as the current theory explaining that evidence, have been uncontroversial among mainstream biologists for nearly a century.**
Since then, nearly all criticisms of evolution have come from religious sources, rather than from the scientific community.[4] Although most religions have accepted the occurrence of evolution, such as those advocating theistic evolution, there still exist religious beliefs which reject evolutionary explanations in favor of creationism, the belief that a deity supernaturally created the world largely in its current form.[5] The resultant U.S.-centric creation-evolution controversy has been a focal point of recent conflict between religion and science.
In contrast to earlier objections to evolution that were either strictly scientific or explicitly religious, recent objections to evolution have frequently blurred the distinction between the two. Such objections have often centered on undermining evolution’s scientific basis, with the intent of combating the teaching of evolution as fact and opposing the spread of “atheistic materialism”.[6][non-primary source needed] Modern creationism is characterized by movements such as Creation Science, neocreationism, and Intelligent Design which argue that the idea of life being directly “designed” by a god or intelligence is at least as scientific as evolutionary theory, and should therefore be taught in public schools. Their arguments against evolution have become widespread, and include objections to evolution’s evidence, methodology, plausibility, morality, and scientific acceptance. The scientific community, however, does not accept such objections as having any validity, citing detractors’ misinterpretations of scientific method, evidence, and basic physical laws.[7]
While objections primarily originate from the United States, there is widespread belief in creationism in the Muslim world[8] and South Africa[9] with smaller followings in Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and Canada.[10]

Lack of observation

Transitional species such as the Archaeopteryx have been a fixture of the creation-evolution debate for almost 150 years.
A common claim of creationists is that evolution has never been observed. Challenges to such objections often come down to debates over how evolution is defined (see above). Under the conventional biological definition of evolution, it is a simple matter to observe evolution occurring. Evolutionary processes, in the form of populations changing their genetic composition from generation to generation, have been observed in different scientific contexts, including the evolution of fruit flies, mice and bacteria in the laboratory, and of tilapia in the field. Such studies on experimental evolution, particularly those using microorganisms, are now providing important insights into how evolution occurs.
In response to such examples, creationists specify that they are objecting only to macroevolution, not microevolution most creationist organizations do not dispute the occurrence of short-term, relatively minor evolutionary changes, such as that observed even in dog breeding. Rather, they dispute the occurrence of major evolutionary changes over long periods of time, which by definition cannot be directly observed, only inferred from microevolutionary processes and the traces of macroevolutionary ones.
However, as biologists define macroevolution, both microevolution and macroevolution have been observed.** Speciations, for example, have been directly observed many times, despite popular misconceptions to the contrary.** Additionally, the modern evolutionary synthesis draws no distinction between macroevolution and microevolution, considering the former to simply be the latter on a larger scale. An example of this is ring species.
Additionally, past macroevolution can be inferred from historical traces. Transitional fossils, for example, provide plausible links between several different groups of organisms, such as Archaeopteryx linking birds and dinosaurs,] or the recently-discovered Tiktaalik linking fish and limbed amphibians. Creationists dispute such examples, from asserting that such fossils are hoaxes or that they belong exclusively to one group or the other, to asserting that there should be far more evidence of obvious transitional species.[92] Darwin himself found the paucity of transitional species to be one of the greatest weaknesses of his theory: “Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geological record.” Darwin appealed to the limited collections then available, the extreme lengths of time involved, and different rates of change with some living species differing very little from fossils of the Silurian period. In later editions he added “that the periods during which species have been undergoing modification, though very long as measured by years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which these same species remained without undergoing any change.”** The number of clear transitional fossils has increased enormously since Darwin’s day, and this problem has been largely resolved with the advent of the theory of punctuated equilibrium, which predicts a primarily stable fossil record broken up by occasional major speciations.**
Creationists counter that even observed speciations and transitional fossils are insufficient evidence for the vast changes summarized by such phrases as “fish to philosophers” or “particles to people”.[95] As more and more compelling direct evidence for inter-species and species-to-species evolution has been gathered, creationists have redefined their understanding of what amounts to a “created kind”, and have continued to insist that more dramatic demonstrations of evolution be experimentally produced.[96] One version of this objection is “Were you there?”, popularized by Ken Ham. It argues that because no one except God could directly observe events in the distant past, scientific claims are just speculation or “story-telling”.[97]** DNA sequences of the genomes of organisms allow an independent test of their predicted relationships, since species which diverged more recently will be more closely related genetically than species which are more distantly related; such phylogenetic trees show a hierarchical organization within the tree of life, as predicted by common descent.**[100]

Defining evolution

Further information: Evolution (term)
One of the main sources of confusion and ambiguity in the creation-evolution debate is the definition of evolution itself. In the context of biology, evolution is genetic changes in populations of organisms over successive generations. However, the word has a number of different meanings in different fields, from evolutionary computation to molecular evolution to sociocultural evolution to stellar and galactic evolution. It can even refer to metaphysical evolution, spiritual evolution, or any of a number of evolutionist philosophies. When biological evolution is conflated with other evolutionary processes, this can cause errors such as the claim that modern evolutionary theory says anything about abiogenesis or the Big Bang.[11]
In colloquial contexts, evolution can refer to any sort of progressive development, and often bears a connotation of gradual improvement: here evolution is understood as a process that results in greater quality or complexity. This common definition, when misapplied to biological evolution, leads to frequent misunderstandings. For example, the idea of devolution (“backwards” evolution) is a result of erroneously assuming that evolution is directional or has a specific goal in mind (cf. orthogenesis). In reality, the evolution of an organism has no “objective” other than increasing the organism’s ability to survive and reproduce in its environment; and its suitability is only defined in relation to this environment. Biologists do not consider any one species, such as humans, to be more highly evolved or advanced than another. Certain sources have been criticized for indicating otherwise due to a tendency to evaluate nonhuman organisms according to anthropocentric standards rather than more objective ones.
Evolution also does not require that organisms become more complex. Although the history of life shows an apparent trend towards the evolution of complexity; there is a question if this appearance of increased complexity is real, or if this conclusion comes from neglecting the fact that the majority of life on earth has always consisted of prokaryotes.[13] In this view, complexity is not a necessary consequence of evolution; rather, it is a consequence of the specific circumstances of evolution on Earth, which frequently made greater complexity advantageous, and thus naturally selected for. Depending on the situation, organisms’ complexity can either increase, decrease, or stay the same, and all three of these trends have been observed in evolution.[12]
Creationist sources frequently define evolution according to a colloquial, rather than scientific, meaning.[14] As a result, many attempts to rebut evolution do not address the findings of evolutionary biology (see straw man argument). This also means that advocates of creationism and evolutionary biologists often simply speak past each other.1

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

large part of the reason why Creationist arguments against evolution can sound so persuasive is because they don’t address evolution, but rather argue against a set of misunderstandings that people are right to consider ludicrous. The Creationists wrongly believe that their understanding of evolution is what the theory of evolution really says, and declare evolution banished. In fact, they haven’t even addressed the topic of evolution. (The situation isn’t helped by poor science education generally. Even most beginning college biology students don’t understand the theory of evolution.)

The five propositions below seem to be the most common misconceptions based on a Creationist straw-man version of evolution. If you hear anyone making any of them, chances are excellent that they don’t know enough about the real theory of evolution to make informed opinions about it.

Evolution has never been observed.
Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
There are no transitional fossils.
The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.
Evolution is only a theory; it hasn’t been proved.
Explanations of why these statements are wrong are given below. They are brief and therefore somewhat simplified; consult the references at the end for more thorough explanations.

“Evolution has never been observed.”

Biologists define evolution as a change in the gene pool of a population over time. One example is insects developing a resistance to pesticides over the period of a few years. Even most Creationists recognize that evolution at this level is a fact. What they don’t appreciate is that this rate of evolution is all that is required to produce the diversity of all living things from a common ancestor.

The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, “Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory.” Evolution 46: 1214-1220). The “Observed Instances of Speciation” FAQ in the talk.origins archives gives several additional examples.

Even without these direct observations, it would be wrong to say that evolution hasn’t been observed. Evidence isn’t limited to seeing something happen before your eyes. Evolution makes predictions about what we would expect to see in the fossil record, comparative anatomy, genetic sequences, geographical distribution of species, etc., and these predictions have been verified many times over. The number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming.

What hasn’t been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a frog changing into a cow. This is not a problem for evolution because evolution doesn’t propose occurrences even remotely like that. In fact, if we ever observed a frog turn into a cow, it would be very strong evidence against evolution.

“Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.”

This shows more a misconception about thermodynamics than about evolution. The second law of thermodynamics says, “No process is possible in which the sole result is the transfer of energy from a cooler to a hotter body.” [Atkins, 1984, The Second Law, pg. 25] Now you may be scratching your head wondering what this has to do with evolution. The confusion arises when the 2nd law is phrased in another equivalent way, “The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease.” Entropy is an indication of unusable energy and often (but not always!) corresponds to intuitive notions of disorder or randomness. Creationists thus misinterpret the 2nd law to say that things invariably progress from order to disorder.

However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things. If a mature tomato plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can’t have more usable energy still? Creationists sometimes try to get around this by claiming that the information carried by living things lets them create order. However, not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law, but order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent program to achieve that order. In any nontrivial system with lots of energy flowing through it, you are almost certain to find order arising somewhere in the system. If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, why is it ubiquitous in nature?

The thermodynamics argument against evolution displays a misconception about evolution as well as about thermodynamics, since a clear understanding of how evolution works should reveal major flaws in the argument. Evolution says that organisms reproduce with only small changes between generations (after their own kind, so to speak). For example, animals might have appendages which are longer or shorter, thicker or flatter, lighter or darker than their parents. Occasionally, a change might be on the order of having four or six fingers instead of five. Once the differences appear, the theory of evolution calls for differential reproductive success. For example, maybe the animals with longer appendages survive to have more offspring than short-appendaged ones. All of these processes can be observed today. They obviously don’t violate any physical laws.

“There are no transitional fossils.”

A transitional fossil is one that looks like it’s from an organism intermediate between two lineages, meaning it has some characteristics of lineage A, some characteristics of lineage B, and probably some characteristics part way between the two. Transitional fossils can occur between groups of any taxonomic level, such as between species, between orders, etc. Ideally, the transitional fossil should be found stratigraphically between the first occurrence of the ancestral lineage and the first occurrence of the descendent lineage, but evolution also predicts the occurrence of some fossils with transitional morphology that occur after both lineages. There’s nothing in the theory of evolution which says an intermediate form (or any organism, for that matter) can have only one line of descendents, or that the intermediate form itself has to go extinct when a line of descendents evolves.

To say there are no transitional fossils is simply false. Paleontology has progressed a bit since Origin of Species was published, uncovering thousands of transitional fossils, by both the temporally restrictive and the less restrictive definitions. The fossil record is still spotty and always will be; erosion and the rarity of conditions favorable to fossilization make that inevitable. Also, transitions may occur in a small population, in a small area, and/or in a relatively short amount of time; when any of these conditions hold, the chances of finding the transitional fossils goes down. Still, there are still many instances where excellent sequences of transitional fossils exist. Some notable examples are the transitions from reptile to mammal, from land animal to early whale, and from early ape to human. For many more examples, see the transitional fossils FAQ in the talk.origins archive, and see http://www.geo.ucalgary.ca/~macrae/talk_origins.html for sample images for some invertebrate groups.

The misconception about the lack of transitional fossils is perpetuated in part by a common way of thinking about categories. When people think about a category like “dog” or “ant,” they often subconsciously believe that there is a well-defined boundary around the category, or that there is some eternal ideal form (for philosophers, the Platonic idea) which defines the category. This kind of thinking leads people to declare that Archaeopteryx is “100% bird,” when it is clearly a mix of bird and reptile features (with more reptile than bird features, in fact). In truth, categories are man-made and artificial. Nature is not constrained to follow them, and it doesn’t.

Some Creationists claim that the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium was proposed (by Eldredge and Gould) to explain gaps in the fossil record. Actually, it was proposed to explain the relative rarity of transitional forms, not their total absence, and to explain why speciation appears to happen relatively quickly in some cases, gradually in others, and not at all during some periods for some species. In no way does it deny that transitional sequences exist. In fact, both Gould and Eldredge are outspoken opponents of Creationism.

“But paleontologists have discovered several superb examples of intermediary forms and sequences, more than enough to convince any fair-minded skeptic about the reality of life’s physical genealogy.” - Stephen Jay Gould, Natural History, May 1994

“The theory of evolution says that life originated, and evolution proceeds, by random chance.”

There is probably no other statement which is a better indication that the arguer doesn’t understand evolution. Chance certainly plays a large part in evolution, but this argument completely ignores the fundamental role of natural selection, and selection is the very opposite of chance. Chance, in the form of mutations, provides genetic variation, which is the raw material that natural selection has to work with. From there, natural selection sorts out certain variations. Those variations which give greater reproductive success to their possessors (and chance ensures that such beneficial mutations will be inevitable) are retained, and less successful variations are weeded out. When the environment changes, or when organisms move to a different environment, different variations are selected, leading eventually to different species. Harmful mutations usually die out quickly, so they don’t interfere with the process of beneficial mutations accumulating.

Nor is abiogenesis (the origin of the first life) due purely to chance. Atoms and molecules arrange themselves not purely randomly, but according to their chemical properties. In the case of carbon atoms especially, this means complex molecules are sure to form spontaneously, and these complex molecules can influence each other to create even more complex molecules. Once a molecule forms that is approximately self-replicating, natural selection will guide the formation of ever more efficient replicators. The first self-replicating object didn’t need to be as complex as a modern cell or even a strand of DNA. Some self-replicating molecules are not really all that complex (as organic molecules go).

Some people still argue that it is wildly improbable for a given self-replicating molecule to form at a given point (although they usually don’t state the “givens,” but leave them implicit in their calculations). This is true, but there were oceans of molecules working on the problem, and no one knows how many possible self-replicating molecules could have served as the first one. A calculation of the odds of abiogenesis is worthless unless it recognizes the immense range of starting materials that the first replicator might have formed from, the probably innumerable different forms that the first replicator might have taken, and the fact that much of the construction of the replicating molecule would have been non-random to start with.

(One should also note that the theory of evolution doesn’t depend on how the first life began. The truth or falsity of any theory of abiogenesis wouldn’t affect evolution in the least.)

“Evolution is only a theory; it hasn’t been proved.”

First, we should clarify what “evolution” means. Like so many other words, it has more than one meaning. Its strict biological definition is “a change in allele frequencies over time.” By that definition, evolution is an indisputable fact. Most people seem to associate the word “evolution” mainly with common descent, the theory that all life arose from one common ancestor. Many people believe that there is enough evidence to call this a fact, too. However, common descent is still not the theory of evolution, but just a fraction of it (and a part of several quite different theories as well).** The theory of evolution not only says that life evolved, it also includes mechanisms, like mutations, natural selection, and genetic drift, which go a long way towards explaining how life evolved.**

Calling the theory of evolution “only a theory” is, strictly speaking, true, but the idea it tries to convey is completely wrong. The argument rests on a confusion between what “theory” means in informal usage and in a scientific context.** A theory, in the scientific sense, is “a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena” [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply tentativeness or lack of certainty. Generally speaking, scientific theories differ from scientific laws only in that laws can be expressed more tersely. Being a theory implies self-consistency, agreement with observations, and usefulness. (Creationism fails to be a theory mainly because of the last point; it makes few or no specific claims about what we would expect to find, so it can’t be used for anything. When it does make falsifiable predictions, they prove to be false.)**

Lack of proof isn’t a weakness, either. On the contrary, claiming infallibility for one’s conclusions is a sign of hubris. Nothing in the real world has ever been rigorously proved, or ever will be. Proof, in the mathematical sense, is possible only if you have the luxury of defining the universe you’re operating in. In the real world, we must deal with levels of certainty based on observed evidence.** The more and better evidence we have for something, the more certainty we assign to it; when there is enough evidence, we label the something a fact, even though it still isn’t 100% certain.**

What evolution has is what any good scientific claim has–evidence, and lots of it.** Evolution is supported by a wide range of observations throughout the fields of genetics, anatomy, ecology, animal behavior, paleontology, and others. If you wish to challenge the theory of evolution, you must address that evidence. You must show that the evidence is either wrong or irrelevant or that it fits another theory better. Of course, to do this, you must know both the theory and the evidence.**

Conclusion

These are not the only misconceptions about evolution by any means. Other common misunderstandings include how geological dating techniques work, implications to morality and religion, the meaning of “uniformitarianism,” and many more. To address all these objections here would be impossible.

But consider: About a hundred years ago, scientists, who were then mostly creationists, looked at the world to figure out how God did things. These creationists came to the conclusions of an old earth and species originating by evolution. Since then, thousands of scientists have been studying evolution with increasingly more sophisticated tools. Many of these scientists have excellent understandings of the laws of thermodynamics, how fossil finds are interpreted, etc., and finding a better alternative to evolution would win them fame and fortune. Sometimes their work has changed our understanding of significant details of how evolution operates, but the theory of evolution still has essentially unanimous agreement from the people who work on it.

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Peace yazdi

Opinions versus opinions ... I'm not even arguing against evolution ... you are trying to impress it on me ... I'm merely saying until there is proof I shall not accept it ... In return you tell me there is proof and then fail to show me where it is ... The experiment I need to see and there is no variation acceptable ...

Take a single gene pool and split it up ... place one of the groups in to cryostasis and let the other group reproduce to the nth degree under altered conditions until it would be considered speciation and let part of the cryo group thaw out and allow the two to interbreed ... if there are no successful mates then you have it ... so long as both groups can still reproduce amongst themselves ... if however the cryo group and nth degree group can still interbreed then take the second group again to the nth degree of generations and take out some more of the specimens from cryo ... and continue this process ... It is a simple experiment ... but all this tampering and hybridization and looking for the reproductive gene etc is just adding layers of complexity in order to baffle the laymen ...

The posts above ... I'm not interested in reading that much ... you want to discuss the topic then be fair and meet my conditions as I have answered your questions. However you think that I am being biased and scientifically unsound ... but to me these are baseless accusations.

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Just an FYI:

1- This part at least is copy pasted and… multiple sites say same statement.

**“A theory, in the scientific sense, is “a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena” [Random House American College Dictionary]. The term does not imply tentativeness or lack of certainty. Generally speaking, scientific theories differ from scientific laws only in that laws can be expressed more tersely. Being a theory implies self-consistency, agreement with observations, and usefulness. (Creationism fails to be a theory …”

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/theoryevolution.htm

**etc. etc.

2- This part is copy pasted from these sites…

**“These are not the only misconceptions about evolution by any means. Other common misunderstandings include how geological dating techniques work, implications to morality and religion, the meaning of “uniformitarianism,” and many more. …”
**

http://www.carnivoraforum.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=7514&page=1

Yazdi Bhai, This discussion is very interestng but science when says** “maybe”, “would be, " most likely or perhaps has been”** means hat there is no concrete evidence of what is said afterward.

Any phenomenon which happened over billions of years or may happen over next billion of years is not really scientific or authentic especially when it relates to living organisms existing as of today.

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Diwana bhai,

what are you trying to say.. I had already posted the link on top of that piece of information and never claimed them to be my original words. I posted them for the readers to study about the misconceptions about evolution which are so naively being advocated in this thread. I hope it helped you clarify a lot of misunderstandings which you might have developed reading some of the posters.. and I hope you will appreciate my effort with an open mind.

Diwana bahi,

You are mixing mathematics with science. There is no such thing as “Q.E.D”.. quod erat demonstrandum in science.. Strictly in scientific terms:

"Lack of proof isn’t a weakness, either. On the contrary, claiming infallibility for one’s conclusions is a sign of hubris. Nothing in the real world has ever been rigorously proved, or ever will be. Proof, in the mathematical sense, is possible only if you have the luxury of defining the universe you’re operating in. In the real world, we must deal with levels of certainty based on observed evidence."…

I gave you the example of the high probability of existence of alien life forms due to observed evidence.. I doubt you have been actually reading the discussion and also understanding it..

In the case of living organism.. there are two possibilities.. one is evolution.. and the other is that the complex life forms just appeared abruptly in the recent geological history.. these are the only two possibilities according to the credible observed data of the geological history of our planet..

Out of these two possibilities evolution has strong foot print evidence pointing towards the likely hood of this phenomena to be true.. while the later has zero observed evidence pointing towards it’s validity except the words of some priests with a specific faith based literal religious understandings.

This is the reason that 99.8% of the scientist with some reputable credentials favor evolution over creationist theory.. my effort in this thread is to show the real situation on this issue to our readers.. I have shown to the readers that evolution does not clash with some interpretations of religion and scriptures.. today as per the official position, Vatican Pope and Arch Bishop of Canterbury believe evolution to be a very likely phenomenon.. I have shown muslim scholars like Mududi, Dr. Israr. and Ghamidi do not have a problem with evolution.. I have shown that if true evolution can be one of the laws of nature created by the Intelligent Designer to modify life forms… it’s the religious understanding of some literal religionist with closed mindset who have a huge problem with accepting evolution as a strong probability.. That’s all..!!!

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

@psyah bhai..

First of all I want to cool down your anger and show you what has been really happening in this thread:

1) Your first claim was that speciation can not occur under any circumstances whatsoever... I showed you speciation from hybridization. You did not accept it as speciation initially because you argued that the resultant hybrids were not viably fertile. Your specific words were that if they were viably fertile you would consider it to be evolution.. I showed you the possibility of viably fertile hybrids. Here you back tracked and started demanding examples from single gene pool.. The case was not single gene pool or not.. the case was to disapprove the notion that speciation can never occur.. under any conditions whatsoever..

2) I think you don't understand the concept of evolution. You are trying to give impression to the readers that evolution claims that monkeys gave birth to humans and speciation occurred, and thus your demand of speciation evidence from a single gene pool population.. What exactly you are doing is wrongly presenting evolution and then criticizing that 99.8% of scientist with credible credentials are dishonest idiots who for political reasons with the agenda of spreading atheism are promoting the idea. Nothing can be more mis-leading..

I requested you to understand the Mendel's law of individual assortment.. I requested you to understand the concept of common ancestry under the light of Mendel's law before demanding speciation from single gene pool.. I think you refused to do some complicated mental exercise yourself.. Let me over simplify things for you again and try to explain you the concept of evolution what it actually means (in very simple language).. contrary to what you have been projecting in this thread..

Speciation does not occur from one generation to another in evolutionary language in a single gene pool population... the proof you so desperately demand to believe in evolution.. We share common ancestors with our cousin chimpanzees with whom we share 99.5% common DNA.. the ancestors who existed 4.6 million years ago.. Means we have been evolving independently from chimpanzees for 4.6 million years. Speciation did not occur between our ancestors from one generation to another.. speciation occurred between us and our cousins/chimpanzees some where in the geological history of the evolution of our later independent ancestors who shared common ancestry in distant geological history... because of natural selection which was being independently perused by both our lineages..

Now let me throw a bombshell of observed evidence on you.. you talk about fossil records.. all the fossil records from humans backward to common ancestors with chimpanzees are in the right direction of evolution.. From.. Homo habilis, Homo rudolfensis, Homo ergaster, Homo georgicus, Homo antecessor, Homo cepranensis, Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis, Homo rhodesiensis, Homo neanderthalensis, Homo sapiens idaltu, Archaic Homo sapiens, Homo floresiensis... not a single fossil record shows the wrong direction or opposite direction of evolution... i.e. the former are less variant compared to the later from the common ancestors.. and thus less variant from their cousin chimpanzees..

If you want to continue this discussion, I am afraid with your present mentality of back tracking we will not have any useful learning discussion.. Brother you have to open your mind to explore the possibilities rather than this undeniable proof mantra..

After all both of us take evolution as a possibility with different degrees of probability.. I am just trying to show you that it's level of certainty is much higher than you believe based on observed evidence..

3) I am disappointed at your attitude/answer about my pointing out your prejudices against ideas/persons differing from your religious understandings.. and labeling them as dishonest because of this reason only.. Your 4 letter explanation "I have no comments"... is simply not acceptable.. and then accusing me that these accusations are baseless.. These are very valid bases for me to believe your biases against evolution.. as for you being scientifically unsound.. I don't think so.. I know you are a man of high IQ with sound science credentials.. (I have admitted your reasoning capabilities in my previous post).. I am just accusing you of being biased because of obvious reasons..

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Peace yazdi

You write too much and we cannot move on until we have established simple facts and assertions ... I'm not getting angry ... frustrated may be ... Now you said that I said "speciation cannot occur under any circumstance" its always the first hurdle .... I don't have to go far to stop you and our conversations are like this ... throughout the whole thread you have been trying to say that I have said something when indeed I have never said it .... all I ask from you is show me the post number and paragaph where I said the above quote ... then we'll move on. InshaAllah ... We need to be sure we are on the same page before we can continue so lets go ... where did I say that?

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Claim 1: Where you implied speciation can not occur and asked for the proof of speciation… your post (540)
You went to the extent of ridiculing the poor chap…

^^^
The same post shows my other claim that you are trying to misguide the readers by wrongly presenting the evolution concept to enable you to create an opportunity to criticize the same. According to evolution genetic drift/speciation is created in isolation.. not by mingling of genetic pool of geographically or otherwise distinct populations.. thus by giving example of interracial cross breeding you are actually working against speciation.

Claim 2: Where you said if there are fertile hybrids can be claimed as evolution.. your post (561)

I may not a subscribe exactly to your religious understandings.. but I can assure you I am not dishonest..

Now can you answer the questions I have raised instead of avoiding them altogether..!!!

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Peace yazdi

This is not good enough ... Now you said that I said "speciation cannot occur under any circumstance" please show where I said this ... I'm not saying you are dishonest ... I am saying that you take your own understanding from what you read and you don't read carefully enough.

Also please one thing at a time we'll talk about my idea of hybridization later on ... first show where I denied under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE speciation cannot occur.

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

For me the arrogant/ridiculing style of posting with a long lecture on interracial cross breeding to negate evolution meant exactly what I said. If you think these words meant anything else.. (according to my understanding they didn't).. I can apologize.. but stop beating the bush any further and at least reply why did you present evolution to be totally opposite to what it actually is in this post.. Is it because of your scientific unsoundness.. or was a deliberate attempt to ridicule someone... who did not agree with your view point on this subject.. you were challenging the person with arrogant confidence that there can be no example of speciation in making which can be actually shown to you..

Let's move on.. let the readers decide what your post 540 actually meant..

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Peace yazdi

Please one thing at a time we’ll talk about my idea of hybridization, my tone in my posts, my perception or understanding of evolution later on … first show where I said NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE can speciation occur.

If you can’t show it … then please admit perhaps you are casting your own ideas of what I am saying without actually reading what I have written.

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

WOW, this is still going on?

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

@psyah

Thanks for adding the emoticon to my quote.. and actually depicting my emotions which otherwise I would have felt too impolite to add..!!!

Let the readers decide what can be concluded from your post 540 when you said "So Theorist ... please show us speciation in the making .... hmm ... I forgot .... you're only a theorist ."

You claim to be a science scholar.. you know what, I really believe you that you are not so naive about the concept of evolution.. I however fail to understand your motive when you asked why speciation/evolution does not occur due to inter racial cross breeding when you exactly know that this concept is totally against the concept of evolution (read Allopatric speciation from my post 574).. and then to ridicule the poor poster.. can you explain your exact motive for this kind of behavior..!!!

I feel you are now running away from the discussion.. as you really don't have anything logical to add.. all your arguments are exposed to the readers.. which are highly biased to prove your other than scientific stance.

Okay to move the discussion further let me apologize if that will satisfy for this point.. now can you answer the other questions I have raised.. or you are stuck with another mantra of "first thing first" to avoid further embarrassment..!!!!

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

Peace yazdi

Instead of trying to interpret what I am saying by “what did he mean by writing this” approach … think scientific and see that your accusation about me saying

**

**..in this post

Is totally unfounded … then you spin off unfounded remarks to draw unfounded conclusions … there is absolutely no chance that I implied that speciation cannot occur … because I do believe that humans can interfere with nature and hence we can create situations that nature may not otherwise create for itself … So as long as you realise that I do not believe that speciation is impossible then we can move on …

Now the question to ask is since speciation is technically possible where has it happened … and you say it has happened in the hybridzation experiments … however are the findings from hybridization experiments a fair test for evolution? Is speciation actually occurring? And I say that they are not fair tests … I say this because hybridzation is not the process of evolution … to see my idea of a fair test for evolution go to this post

To add insult to injury you go on and say this …

**

**in this post

Actually I never gave this impression … This is what you are casting on me … I understand evolution … it appears you do not … I have mentioned the common ancestor theory here many times … So humans and Chimpanzees have a common ancestor … it begs the question could we come from that ancestor? So we came from something that no longer exists … but how do we check that we came from them? - There is no way to check for this because they are all dead. There is no way to prove it or disprove it … hence it is a belief. This common ancestor was single gene pool and allegedly it split in two groups that separately evolved … so there is one gene pool that becomes two … unfortunately the common ancestor remains are fossils and fossils are like rock - they no longer contain any DNA that we can ascertain any notion of parenthood. This is not to say that I am suggesting that humans came from monkeys … to say that would be old school evolution - new school evolution is more clever with the common ancestor there is no way to prove that wrong. A theory that cannot be proven wrong and not proven right is a belief.

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

1- The whole reason of me posting the sites where you brought the posts, was to show multiple sites are saying exactly the same thing, exactly the same words and your comments were missing to help readers what your take on it was. Mere copy-pasting can be done by anyone and the sites can be searched by anyone if interested. Only your understanding with link or part of the content of link would have been sufficient.

2-As to what you and Psyah have been discussing I must say I had not been following since my arguments may not be along the same line as Psyah bahi and you and him had been going on with the line of argument which I had not intended especially where creation, religious or whatever theory is discussed.

3- I said repeatedly science has problem which science has to clear up. No need whatsoever to bring religion/creationists here.

4- I see when 'scientists' fail to prove this theory they make up new ways to define evolution for example evolution is not Darwinism.

(We have a new term now Darwinism to separate it from Evolution)

Also, now evolutionists are trying to appease thoe who are religious (creationists) by saying evolution and religions can co-exist.

5- I really do not care what Modudi, Dr. Israr or any religious perdon from ANY RELIGION thinks.

All I care is what scienctists say and how scientists can back up their claims scientifically WITHOUT makng up the definition along the way as it suits their made up theory and **yet unable to get to the final authentic and valid proof.

**6- You claimed 99.8% of scientists believe evolution.
You said:

"These are the kind of foot prints which have convinced 99.8% of scientist with respectable credentials to accept evolution as a highly probable phenomenon." (this and Post 559)

To my understanding 99.8% of only America's scientists who are in this field of earth and life believe it to be valid.

Yazdi bhai! the definition of evolution is made in such a way that even those who believe 100% on these scientists have some confusion about it.

So far what has been said and presented is like pieces of a puzzle and everytime something is presented, the conclusion/claim is made that evolution is valid.

Re: Why are Muslims against Evolution?!?

I respect your approach that you want to explore evolution in purely scientific manner. In fact it is the most logical approach provided you don’t have any judgmental biases such as the ones I have pointed out. We are in the philosophy section and it was imperative for me to define my standing in that context.

Please ignore the religious dimensions from my posts. I have tried to explain you the difference between mathematical/scientific concepts. I am posting another link for you to study the meaning of science theory or a concept.** Science does not explore/investigate/probe the level of certainty of an idea on the basis of a belief as some posters are trying to misguide the readers in this thread by projecting evolution as a belief system because of the non availability of evidence of their personal liking.. rather science relies on observed data.** I am sure once you will start exploring evolution on the basis of observed data.. you will increase your idea about it’s level of certainty. The figures are quoted to show you most of the scientist subscribe to evolution with a very high degree of certainty not only in USA but every where in the world.. just google and you will be amazed at the figures/percentages of scientist who lean towards the validity of evolution..

Misconceptions about evolution and the nature of science

1-Evolution is not science because it is not observable or testable. This misconception encompasses two incorrect ideas: (1) that all science depends on controlled laboratory experiments, and (2) that evolution cannot be studied with such experiments. First, many scientific investigations do not involve experiments or direct observation. Astronomers cannot hold stars in their hands and geologists cannot go back in time, but both scientists can learn a great deal about the universe through observation and comparison. In the same way, evolutionary biologists can test their ideas about the history of life on Earth by making observations in the real world. Second, though we can’t run an experiment that will tell us how the dinosaur lineage radiated, we can study many aspects of evolution with controlled experiments in a laboratory setting.** In organisms with short generation times (e.g., bacteria or fruit flies), we can actually observe evolution in action over the course of an experiment. And in some cases, biologists have observed evolution occurring in the wild. To learn more about rapid evolution in the wild, visit our news story on climate change, our news story on the evolution of PCB-resistant fish, or our research profile on the evolution fish size in response to our fishing practices. **To learn more about the nature of science, visit the Understanding Science website.

2-Evolution is ‘just’ a theory. This misconception stems from a mix-up between casual and scientific use of the word theory. In everyday language, theory is often used to mean a hunch with little evidential support. Scientific theories, on the other hand, are broad explanations for a wide range of phenomena. In order to be accepted by the scientific community, a theory must be strongly supported by many different lines of evidence. Evolution is a well-supported and broadly accepted scientific theory; it is not ‘just’ a hunch. To learn more about the nature of scientific theories, visit the Understanding Science website.

3-Evolutionary theory is invalid because it is incomplete and cannot give a total explanation for the biodiversity we see around us. This misconception stems from a misunderstanding of the nature of scientific theories. All scientific theories (from evolutionary theory to atomic theory) are works in progress. As new evidence is discovered and new ideas are developed, our understanding of how the world works changes and so too do scientific theories. While we don’t know everything there is to know about evolution (or any other scientific discipline, for that matter), we do know a great deal about the history of life, the pattern of lineage-splitting through time, and the mechanisms that have caused these changes. And more will be learned in the future. Evolutionary theory, like any scientific theory, does not yet explain everything we observe in the natural world.** However, evolutionary theory does help us understand a wide range of observations (from the rise of antibiotic-resistant bacteria to the physical match between pollinators and their preferred flowers), does make accurate predictions in new situations (e.g., that treating AIDS patients with a cocktail of medications should slow the evolution of the virus), and has proven itself time and time again in thousands of experiments and observational studies. To date, evolution is the only well-supported explanation for life’s diversity.** To learn more about the nature of scientific theories, visit the Understanding Science website.

4-Gaps in the fossil record disprove evolution. While it’s true that there are gaps in the fossil record, this does not constitute evidence against evolutionary theory. Scientists evaluate hypotheses and theories by figuring out what we would expect to observe if a particular idea were true and then seeing if those expectations are borne out. If evolutionary theory were true, then we’d expect there to have been transitional forms connecting ancient species with their ancestors and descendents. This expectation has been borne out. Paleontologists have found many fossils with transitional features, and new fossils are discovered all the time. However, if evolutionary theory were true, we would not expect all of these forms to be preserved in the fossil record. Many organisms don’t have any body parts that fossilize well, the environmental conditions for forming good fossils are rare, and of course, we’ve only discovered a small percentage of the fossils that might be preserved somewhere on Earth. So scientists expect that for many evolutionary transitions, there will be gaps in the fossil record. To learn more about testing scientific ideas, visit the Understanding Science website. To learn more about evolutionary transitions and the fossils that document them, visit our module on this topic.

Misconceptions about the acceptance of evolution

1-The theory of evolution is flawed, but scientists won’t admit it. Scientists have studied the supposed “flaws” that anti-evolution groups claim exist in evolutionary theory and have found no support for these claims. These “flaws” are based on misunderstandings of evolutionary theory or misrepresentations of the evidence. As scientists gather new evidence and as new perspectives emerge, evolutionary theory continues to be refined, but that doesn’t mean that the theory is flawed. Science is a competitive endeavor, and scientists would be eager to study and correct “flaws” in evolutionary theory if they existed. For more on how evolutionary theory changes, see our misconception on this topic above.

2-Evolution is a theory in crisis and is collapsing as scientists lose confidence in it. Evolutionary theory is not in crisis; scientists accept evolution as the best explanation for life’s diversity because of the multiple lines of evidence supporting it, its broad power to explain biological phenomena, and its ability to make accurate predictions in a wide variety of situations. Scientists do not debate whether evolution took place, but they do debate many details of how evolution occurred and occurs in different circumstances.** Antievolutionists may hear the debates about how evolution occurs and misinterpret them as debates about whether evolution occurs. Evolution is sound science and is treated accordingly by scientists and scholars worldwide.**

3-Most biologists have rejected ‘Darwinism’ and no longer agree with the ideas put forth by Darwin and Wallace. It is true that we have learned a lot about evolution since Darwin’s time. Today, we understand the genetic basis for the inheritance of traits, we can date many events in the fossil record to within a few hundred thousand years, and we can study how evolution has shaped development at a molecular level. These advances — ones that Darwin likely could not have imagined — have expanded evolutionary theory and made it much more powerful; however, they have not overturned the basic principles of evolution by natural selection and common ancestry that Darwin and Wallace laid out, but have simply added to them. It’s important to keep in mind that elaboration, modification, and expansion of scientific theories is a normal part of the process of science. For more on how evolutionary theory changes, see our misconception on this topic above.