come on now stop being soppy 
of course no hard feelings, dont u worry iâve got very thick skin:D
irem: Salam hope all is well..while there is an element of truth in what your saying let me make an observation..who is worse..the killer or the one who tells the killer to do something?
As a Muslim and human being..despite whatever influence anyone (US-ISI-RAW-Mossad) etc may have had the people involved are predominantly Pakistanis (again I am not denying that foreign intelligence agencies don't encourage this behaviour). They maybe brainwashed Pakistanis or extremists but that doesn't change the fact they should be punished. Again this is a blow back of international politics in the 1980's and 1990's but the problem will only be solved if there is honest realisation of the truth.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *
Imdad says who? Please speak for yourself only! These folks in urban sindh have LEFT, DITCHED India. They are now PAKISTANIS.
[/QUOTE]
We still identify our origins from places of India.
Imdad Ali, but that doesnât mean youâre Indian. Youâre the first person Iâve heard say this. I think its sad that being a Pakistani you call yourself Indian? 
Zakk, wsalam, nice to see you around iâm doing great, thanks, hope all is well with you too.
You do have a point I have to agree with you there.
Poor people send their kids to madaaris thinking they will get housing and food and religious education, and the kids end up getting brainwashed and used. Its really sad. We do have to realise the truth and yes the perpetrators of these heinous crimes should be punished, youâre totally right, but donât you also think that part of the truth is that there is a foregin hand involved in thisâŚ
Irem, you are young. Do you know what native people of "Pakistan" call us behind our backs? I have been questioned many times by police in karachi and I know.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Irem, you are young. Do you know what native people of "Pakistan" call us behind our backs? I have been questioned many times by police in karachi and I know.
[/QUOTE]
Native ppl of Pak and police.
you were questioned so what.
I think you need medication.
Irem ji, itâs actually not that bad. Id Imdad wants to be an Indian, thats actually better for Pakistan. He can become their liability (if they accept him, that is :D)
Anyone killing innocents is destined for hell, maybe some of these killers have lost their humanity, but it is my faith in G-d that tells me their punishment has yet to come.
These ppl malign Sunni Islam just like other terrorists malign Islam. Either stand up to them, or get ready to become a victim.
Imdad, donât say things like that. You can call yourself a pig, but god forbid you should refer to yourself as an Indian. It hurts our Arbo-Persic ego. Please donât ever do it again. We are white people of Iranian and Middle eastern ancestry (we need visa to go to even friggin Qatar aka Gutter), and we are way superior than ugly Indians who are mostly dark and little except an odd good looking chick here and there.
Even if our own muslim brothers of Persian and Arabia donât think very highly of us, we are still superior over Indians.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *
Native ppl of Pak and police.
you were questioned so what.
I think you need medication.
[/QUOTE]
I was only questioned, others were less lucky.
anyway. directing the thread back to its intial discussion.
IMO the Saudi / Iranian governments were funding the violence at the outset. The Irani funding is gone, as are the groups that they were funding. I do not know whether the sunni hardline groups are still funded by the Sauds, or if they've taken enough root in our society to thrive on their own.
Either way, this is definitely the work of homegrown hands, if perhaps on foreign money.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ravage: *
anyway. directing the thread back to its intial discussion.
IMO the Saudi / Iranian governments were funding the violence at the outset. The Irani funding is gone, as are the groups that they were funding. I do not know whether the sunni hardline groups are still funded by the Sauds, or if they've taken enough root in our society to thrive on their own.
Either way, this is definitely the work of homegrown hands, if perhaps on foreign money.
[/QUOTE]
^
The hell with the Saudi/Iranians, yara. These foriegn govt's have no right playing their petty turf battles in Pak. Worse yet, we have Pakistani monkeyboys collaborating with them. This fundamentalist scum must be eradicated.
Pakistan, the beacon of hope, the inheritor of the tolerant Indus valley civilizations must not become hostage to the shifting fortunes of geopolitics. We must look inward rather than outward to solve our problems. After all, what has Iran, India, SA ever do for us? If we start targetting our own Pakistanis, that amounts to destroying the core of Pakistan.
i completely agree with you RF.
presumably Pakistan was made to enable Muslims to practice their religion in peace.
it seems ridiculous to even say that these days.
I dont care who funds this, the fact is that we are doing this to ourselves.
Anyhow, I think Musharraf has been the most active addresser of this problem in the decade that this has festered. Heres data to support that:
sectarian intolerance and fundamentalism might have started at the behest of foreign powers with their resources but it has become a genuine domestic problem. I think this board generally has a very tolerant and mature bunch of Pakistanis (save for perhaps Religion forum). unfortunately though, in my opinion, ordinary people in Pak meddle too much with other people's religious inclincations and lives in general. if only people worried about putting roti on table for themselves and their kids instead of worrying about who the first Khalifa should've been or what the last seal means things would be a lot better...
sambrialian you really think so bro? hmmmâŚi dono, iâve grown up in pakistan, live in pakistan, i wallahi have never ever met anyone who said shias should be killed or sunnis should be killed or a certain sect should be killed. and iâm talking abt all kinds of ppl. maybe there are people like that but they are definitely a very very small minority. i think even if there is a little spark of hatred among us then foreign hands have been the one to ignite it into a full flame.
ravage i hope Mush really clamps down on whoever is behind this bro. but its so difficult. firstly, our security mechanisms are not that efficient, even musharrafâs own life is not safe. and secondly the way this is happenning is so scary, like suicide bombing in mosquesâŚ!!! 
how do you control this? INshallah thoughâŚweâll be able to overcome thisâŚ
BTW do you really think that Saudia govt would finance Shia killings and Irani govt would finance Sunni killings? I really doubt it bro.
RF you are right there is some local scum thatâs collaborating with them, people who have sold their faiths and soulsâŚwho donât have any Deen EeemaanâŚ
Madhanee uncle, 
rehman1 Yes please tell him!
Imdad, well, there are mean people everywhere who will try to make you feel bad, and we all know how polite our police is! why should it make you feel any less Pakistani? Tell them to take a hike, and just be confident in your ownself. Who cares what someone says to you, you should know youâre a Pakistani and thats it. Just coz someone is a native Paki doesnât make them more Paki, I think immigrants have given more sacrifices for Pakistan in many cases, and if someone makes you feel bad just ignore em coz they need a brain check. I think as I was telling ahmadjee a couple posts earlier, why do minorities suffer from this minority complex?
FYI my motherâs side of the family migrated to Pakistan, my dadâs family is local from Punjab. And Iâve never seen the attitude among my maternal cousins that you exhibit. Iâve also got some male cousins in KHI whoâve been questioned etc as well, but they are die hard patriots, all of them, and it never led them to think they are any less Pakistani. Why do you feel like this? You should get out of it bro come on! Pakistan will be yours if you think and want it to be yours. Just like you have rights to this soil this soil also has rights on you.
Irem, this is not a cartoon where you tell people to take a hike and they will listen. They will either kill you, or you will have to kill them.
The amount of hatred that is published by various jihad groups in pakistan agianst shias is just amazing and the govnt either turns a blind eye or actively supports it through agencies. Unless action is taking towards the source of the problem, I am well within my right to call pakistan, the sunni republic. And the source is not poverty, it is hatred.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Imdad Ali: *
Irem, this is not a cartoon where you tell people to take a hike and they will listen. They will either kill you, or you will have to kill them.
The amount of hatred that is published by various jihad groups in pakistan agianst shias is just amazing and the govnt either turns a blind eye or actively supports it through agencies. Unless action is taking towards the source of the problem, I am well within my right to call pakistan, the sunni republic. And the source is not poverty, it is hatred.
[/QUOTE]
:p
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_20-5-2004_pg3_1
EDITORIAL: Police and sectarianism in Lahore
The senior police officer who came on TV Sunday to announce that the Mughalpura-Lahore massacre of a family of Shias last week was, Insha-Allah (sic!), not a sectarian crime, should have realised that the people of Mughalpura would not go along with his interpretation, except for the strong Sipah Sahaba lobbies there. The family was shot to death last week. One member who was absent on the night of the execution was killed later after the police got him to agree to a cooked-up FIR. Nadeem was killed after he was allowed to circulate without police protection. His body was found bruised in many places while his wrists were cut on both sides. The police, instead of changing their line of thinking, came down harder on the theory that it was probably a âfamily feudâ.
The newspapers were prompted to call it âandha qatalâ (untraceable death) and editorials were written saying the police should somehow stop these âblindâ deaths which could not be attributed to anyone. The fact that the walls of the house in which the murders took place were spray-painted with âkafirâ was ignored by some papers while speculating that someone intent on settling a vendetta had written the sectarian message as a red herring. Everyone ignored that fact that a few days earlier someone had blown up a Shia gathering at the Haideri Masjid in Karachi, which was definitely part of the countrywide campaign against the hapless community. The police in Lahore simply refused to make the connection between Quetta, Karachi and Mughalpura Lahore where there exists a strong extremist Sunni presence.
**Now one paper has said that the police has tampered with the post-mortem report of Nadeem so that a senior police official could declare that he âhad committed suicide either by going insane due to shock or he knew the perpetrators of the massacre or had some personal involvement in itâ. **Sources at the morgue were reported by the media as saying that there were deep cut wounds on both sides of the wrist of Nadeem, clearly implying that the injury was not self-inflicted. Then the report says something most significant: âA close relative of the ill-fated family alleged that the police were the main culprit in the death of Nadeem Haiderâ.
This is not difficult to believe. Let us survey the national press during the week that saw the Shia family in Lahore so cruelly exterminated. According to âJangâ (May 17), the suicide-bombers who blew up the âashuraâ procession in Quetta in March this year killing 47 Shias were Abdun Nabi and Hidayatullah from Lashkar-e-Jhangvi. Both had trained in Afghanistan in the Al Qaeda-Taliban camps. They plotted the terrorist act in Karachi in Nasirabad in the house of police constable, Ghulam Haider. The police got the first clue when they discovered a CD depicting the two suicide bombers in martyrsâ outfit.
Daily âNawa-e-Waqtâ wrote the same day that the CD was sent to the police by an unknown source in which the two terrorists confessed that they (in July 2003) had killed over 50 Shias at an imambargah in Quetta. The Shia community of Quetta accused the police and antiterrorist force (ATF) too of firing on the Shias. The latest act of terrorism which killed a number of Shias in Karachiâs Haideri Masjid was carried out by a police constable who was a member of Jaish-e Muhammad and wanted to become a martyr by killing the infidels. In the murder of the American journalist Daniel Pearl in Karachi in 2002 also, the involvement of an Al Qaeda-trained policeman had come to light.
The Mughalpura family of two brothers, Naveed Haider and Nadeem Haider, was from the countryside who had made good in Lahore. Gentle folks in their habits, they had to struggle hard after their father died. Their mother had to bring them up in a poor locality without any help. She began a primary school which was successful and was bringing good income to the family last year when the mother too died. Nadeem was brilliant, having stood first at Karachiâs prestigious IBA institution. Naveed was working as a manager in a hosiery factory. The families of the two brothers (and one sister who ran the school) lived in a small house. They were devout Muslims and observed the Shia rituals which unfortunately made them conspicuous in a gentle neighbourhood now increasingly penetrated by extremists. The family was a sitting duck in the new wave of revenge killings by the Lashkar-Jaish terrorist combine.
The police in Lahore have done grievous injustice to the family and the people of Lahore. They have taken advantage of the clerical rhetoric, unhappily adopted by many Urdu columnists, that no Muslim can kill another Muslim, which then leads to the next assumption that only an enemy of Islam and Pakistan can carry out sectarian crimes. After that you can pick and choose among the enemies, India and America coming at the top of the list. Unsurprisingly, the Shia cleric saying the âjanazaâ of the Mughalpura family did refer to what was going on in Najaf and tried to link the massacre to America, but no Shia paid heed to that. (This is what a Shia cleric also said on TV in Karachi after the Haideri Masjid suicide-bombing.) The police cannot pretend to hide behind this sinister mythology.
Sectarian terror is alive and bloody in Lahore. The Deobandi militias first found their breeding patch here in the 1990s when Sipah Sahaba was in the government, even as it carried out torture of the Shias under police protection. This is also the city where the largest Deobandi congregation under the Tablighi Jamaâat takes place, attended by the son of the chief minister. The common man doesnât know all this but the police does. So if the CM canât or wonât do anything to stem the bloody tide, will General Pervez Musharraf?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Khilaari: *
* The family was a sitting duck in the new wave of revenge killings by the Lashkar-Jaish terrorist combine.**
[/QUOTE]
Is this the same Lashkar and Jaish which were much encouraged and publically funded by Pakistanis to keep the bullets flying in Kashmir valley?
Please dont pin this wave on the US - it is a case of chicken coming home to roost, the price to pay for calling mercenery terrorists "mujahideen".
So have the bullets stopped flying in Kashmir now that the bad Pakis have stopped sending over the jihadis then queer? Maybe the ISI was to blame for the communal arson parties in Gujarat as well?
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by irem: *
sambrialian you really think so bro? hmmm....i dono, i've grown up in pakistan, live in pakistan, i wallahi have never ever met anyone who said shias should be killed or sunnis should be killed or a certain sect should be killed. and i'm talking abt all kinds of ppl. **maybe there are people like that but they are definitely a very very small minority*
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. It's a small minority.
But a small minority in Pakistan still can get guns and then walk into Shia mosques and homes and unleash slaughter.
It's this small minority in Pakistani society that must be identified, rooted out and utterly destroyed.