Who should Muslims learn from?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

Jubashing.....lol: clearly you missed the entire point of this thread!

This is the state of mind that all the unsuccessful countries are in right. But to really bring it home this is the state of mind in which some of our own muslim people are in. Before bashing someone else, lets try to fix our selves?? Why not? Who said that the solution is to get help from America? All i'm saying is that we can learn from different people first, instead of bashing them first, that will get us no where.

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agreed!!^^^

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"to Pray to our Almighty Allah all Five times" << this has nothing to do with history, its about religion and we should fallow it the right way. So yes we will meet eachother in unity by praying 5 times a day, and hopfully Allah will grant us our prayers .

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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

YES INDEED GAIA SIS! WE HAVE DESTROYED OURSELVES WITH OUR OWN HANDS AND OUR IDEAL MUST BE SIHABA-E-KIRAM AND ISLAM, NOTHING ELSE!

TODAY MUSLIMS HAVE SIDELINED THE TEACHINGS OF ISLAM AND WE CAN SEE THE RESULT THAT OUR ENEMY IS IMPOSED ON US BY ALLAH ALMIGHTY BECOZ OF OUR WRONG DEEDS AND THIS IS A PUNISHMENT FOR US

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[quote]
why are you forgetting about Malaysia, Indonesia, U.A.E, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Turkey and other successful majority Muslim countries
[/quote]
Saudi Arabia is artificially successful because of oil. The day an alternative to oil is found Saudi Arabia will become another Egypt or Syria. The UAE is a unique case and is pretty successful but I don't think any other nation can adopt its model. The other nations you mentioned are only "successful" compared to the 57 OIC nations. Turkey and Malaysia, which are the two OIC nations which have the highest per capita income excluding the artificial oil rich nations, are on par with Mexico in that category. Does anyone consider Mexico to be successful?

The truth is every successful country has a few things in common. It is no coincidence. If a quom wants to learn to be successful look at the ingredients that are required to be successful in 2009, not 1209. For instance, secularism and democracy (notice that the most successful Muslim majority country is a secular democracy?)...

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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

^ thats good information, thanks!

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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

Wrong! we must follow the example of Saudi or Afghanistan and try to make our country like theirs!

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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

Wrong we must try to follow the examples of our holy prophet peace be upon him & the Pious Caliphs & try to create a state like they created in Medina (it is an impossible goal which cannot be achieved in its entirety but we should strive for it as much as possible)..., & develop a society as they did...,

In my previous post I did not mentioned who we should follow .., the reason was that I thought most people will not take it seriously... or may be even mocker at it (which I did not wanted to)

I believe the only way to create a such a society..., is by following the path of our Holy Prophet PBUH..., is by following the methodology adopted by our Holy Prophet for creating the revolution in Arabia in the 7th century.., it is the only instance of a complete revolution in the history of mankind..., all other revolutions that have in history have been partial..., some have transformed the political system (French Revolution), some transformed the economic system (Boltvich Revolution)..., some transformed the social system (The Enlightenment period in europe not exactly a revolution but more of a long term movement & an era)... but our holy Prophet PBUH's struggle shane the Arabs , it changed their political system, their economic system & their society , it transformed their minds it transformed their social values... Above all this happened in a single lifespan in just 21 years (23 Moon years), unlike the rest of the partial revolutions which took centuries in the making...,

theme of the month----- flowers and gardens
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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

Could not agree with you more.

Most of the so called religious people amongst us just follow the daily rituals (of praying etc.) like a physical routine and are neither sincere to their country nor their countrymen.

......or they pray out of fear of Allah rather than with the aim of improving themselves as humanbeings or purifying their souls. The net result is that they never mend their bad habits like chakkarbaazi, dishonesty etc. Praying alone is not enough. If you don't learn insaaniyat I am not sure what you are praying for...

Hence I say
Humanity or insaaniyat first then country then religion.

Riddle time
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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

[quote]
Wrong we must try to follow the examples of our holy prophet peace be upon him & the Pious Caliphs & try to create a state like they created in Medina (it is an impossible goal which cannot be achieved in its entirety but we should strive for it as much as possible)..., & develop a society as they did...,

[/quote]
That has been attempted numerous times and has failed each time it has been tried in modern times. What worked in 650 simply does not work in 2009. Do you see any Christians talking about going back to the society of 2,000 years ago when Jesus was around or Buddhists talking about going back even farther to Buddha's time? This obsession with creating a 7th century utopia in the 21st century is crippling much of the OIC. The previous poster mentioned Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan. Those were attempts to do what you say, as is Iran, as was Algeria, as is Sudan, as was part of Malaysia, part of Nigeria,

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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

I believe it has never ever been attempted since the time of holy Prophet PBUH.., separate Muslims from Islam..., after the period of Pious Caliph Islam has been in a constant state of decline... but the Muslims as a power were rising in the period that followed ..., this period of Arab & then later Turk Imperialism certainly cant be characterized as based on core values/principles of Islam & it certainly does not have the merits for even muslims to desire its return let alone non muslims.After this period the muslims as a nation started to decline(note the distinction here, Islam had already been declining since the end of the period of Pious Caliphs..) we reached our lowest ebb after word war I. Therefore in this 1200 period there was never a movement that strived for reviving Islam as a system of life..., only muslims rulers striving for the advancement of their own self interest

Time can never be reversed it can only move ahead... you have misinterpreted me.., I was envisaging for a system based on core values of Islam... a society based on the principles of social/economic/political justice & equality.A society that facilitates an individual to achieve his moral & spiritual fulfillment..., as was created by our Holy Prophet PBUH. However, its manifestation would be different in modern times..., the desire is the revival of this value system which is timeless .., not a return to the technological primitiveness of that time. It is extremely naive to believe that these two dimensions are not orthogonal..., when the first time this system was established it did not attempt to still the process of technological progress & advancement of knowledge.., infact Islam was the impetus that enabled the world to escape the dark ages.
Hazrat Isa PBUH & Buddha never succeeded in creating a virtuous society..., so there remains no question for their followers to desire a return to their period as unlike us they dont have a practically implemented model to aspire towards.

The examples that you have quoted may have had the intentions for creating such a society but failed to follow the methodology of our Holy Prophet PBUH in achieving this objective. Like I said it will only happen following the methodology of Our Holy Prophet PBUH..., we fail to take into consideration that of the 23 years of Nabowat..., during the 10 years at Makkah the commandment was 'never to raise your hand even in self defense'..., the objective at the time was not to establish Sharia but first to create Imaan amongst the muslims..., work on their spiritual & moral development...., do any of the above mentioned attempts which in my view only resulted in the alteration of power status quo, preceded a movement for development of Imaan, spirituality & observance of Islamic values ? The fatal flaw in all these movements is an invalid assumption that just because we are muslims we have Imaan, we have morality , we have character..., I say most of us are muslims only because of a hereditary custom/belief..., most of us dont actually believe..., most of us in character are lower then the worst of the infidels..., without Imaan any attempt for the establishment of an Islamic society is a mere deception to disguise an urge for power, frustration on non-achievement of worldly goals or movement for establishment of racial/ethnic/nationalistic superiority.
Therefore to hold something that was never attempted in its true sense responsible for our pathetic state is not correct.

No other prophet of Allah was successful to establish the 'Kingdom of Heaven on Earth' before our Holy prophet ..., no other reformer in the history of mankind before or after our Holy prophet managed to transform a society in every facet of life.
What only happened once in the entire history of humanity..., will only happen again following the principles & model that led to its achievement in the only instance it happened.
The only thing I believe will be different is that never again such a revolution will occur in a single lifespan..., this will take decades may be centuries..., & there will be many failed attempts...,

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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

[QUOTE]
I believe it has never ever been attempted since the time of holy Prophet PBUH..,
[/QUOTE]

That is because of all the mythology surrounding that time period.

[QUOTE]
Therefore in this 1200 period there was never a movement that strived for reviving Islam as a system of life..., only muslims rulers striving for the advancement of their own self interest
[/QUOTE]

Self-interest, huh? Do you think your "pious caliphs" just happened to invade non-stop until their state stretched from Pakistan to Egypt when Ali died? Was it for sport or imperial gains, i.e. wanting to rule as much land as possible like almost every emperor has?

The Muslim world/OIC is in decline because it has failed to change with the times. The problem the OIC 57 face is that Islam itself is a big reason for this. It is such a rigid religion that it does not allow the societal and cultural flexibility required to rapidly adjust to changing times like other religions do. Only Muslims, as I said earlier, are calling for laws of 1,200 years ago to be revived.

[QUOTE]
when the first time this system was established it did not attempt to still the process of technological progress & advancement of knowledge.., infact Islam was the impetus that enabled the world to escape the dark ages.
[/QUOTE]

That was centuries ago. The world evolved, the OIC lands did not. You can go back to the 7th century but it is a myth that you can have 7th century laws, culture, etc. and 21st century results. If you want to live in the 7th century, fine, but then do not complain about being "behind" the rest of the world because you refuse to adapt.

[QUOTE]
Hazrat Isa PBUH & Buddha never succeeded in creating a virtuous socie
[/QUOTE]

Virtuous societies allow slavery?

[QUOTE]
most of us dont actually believe..., most of us in character are lower then the worst of the infidels.
[/QUOTE]

This is a perfect example of what I am talking about. Only Muslims so casually use the slur "infidel" in the 21st century. This is one key difference between the OIC and successful countries. Just look at the wicked Punjab government sponsored conference that took place this week! The world and time have passed ancient Urbi values by and religious bigotry is one of those archaic values.

[QUOTE]
no other reformer in the history of mankind before or after our Holy prophet managed to transform a society in every facet of life.
[/QUOTE]

That is hype and is transformation inherently great? It implies dictatorial powers on the part of someone who can make such changes.

What you say is the common Islamist view. The problem is it is based on mythology and nostalgia.

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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

WHY DO YOU BOTHER MR JEFFERSON? WHY?

2500 posts: GS Café Flooder of the week challeng
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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

I think muslims should learn from whoever has something to teach including every sort of kuffars...

If we confine our learning curve just to muslims as some posters are suggesting, I think we will have very limited scope of learning in areas like agriculture, medicine, science, technology, management, organizational skills, production, communication, industry, fashion, social justice, respect for others and tolerance and so on...I don't think muslims have made much advancement in these fields and have skills which they can teach others....

With such backwardness I think it is more important for muslims to have good relationship with others and even befriend them to learn from them, instead of isolating themselves and continue living in middle ages and even dark ages in some cases..

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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

good point :k:
Right now the muslims are like a herd of sheep with no idea which way to turn to go home - and no sheppard in sight - and then we have the BLACK sheep in the herd.

Looks like they have submitted (literally) to Allah’s Will - in the wrong sense.
“subb kuch Allah pay chooR doo”

Bait Bazi March 2013
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Re: Who should Muslims learn from?

A very simple question for you...think and then reply!!!

Prophet (PBUH) was chosen the ruler of Madina when the Islamic state of Madina was created. Jews, Christains, Kafirs, and other communities were not consulted.

Similarly when** pious Caliphs were chosen their selection was a result of consultation between pious male muslims of that time.** Women, Kafirs, and other communities had no say in choosing the ruler at that time. It was perfectly alright at that time as there no was concept of democracy anywhere in the world.

So when you say that a state like Madina should be created in Pakistan, are you advocating a similar system for choosing the rulers and taking back the right of voting from Women, Kafirs, and whoever does not come under the definition of pious muslims as understood by (whom)?

Please be specific in your answer...

Do you think if that 6th century system is followed it will create a good image of Islam in the world...

Please do remember we were not promised this kind of system when Pakistan was created...

I bring your attention to some of the quotes of our great founder Quideazam..

We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State.
Presidential Address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on 11th August, 1947.

The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principle of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fairplay to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims --Hindus, Christians, and Parsis --but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.
Broadcast talk to the people of the United States of America on Pakistan recorded February, 1948.

As you know, history shows that in England conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. *Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days when there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. *
Presidential Address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on 11th August, 1947.

The great majority of us are Muslims. We follow the teachings of the Prophet Mohammed (may peace be upon him). We are members of the brotherhood of Islam in which all are equal in rights, dignity and self-respect. Consequently, we have a special and a very deep sense of unity.** But make no mistake: Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it.**
Broadcast talk to the people of Australia recorded on 19th February, 1948.