Who really won Kargil war?

It is obvious to even a layperson (other then complete retarded) that Pakistan gave a good stick to India in Kargil war and if it were not for Nawaz Shareef, map of Kashmir would have been different.

If one reads western newspapers of the time (Kargil war and after-war), even British newspaper of the time when Musharraf took over Pakistan (October 1999), one can read a lot about what happened in Kargil and how Indian suffered huge casualties without achieving anything until Nawaz Shareef came to Indian rescue just to please USA. Well, many newspapers wrote that, Pakistan won Kargil war on the ground but lost on the table.

** Regardless, a very important ground reality followed Kargil war, is evidence itself (for people with little intelligence and not complete retard) about what happened during Kargil war.**

Before Kargil war, Nawaz Shareef was a very strong politician in Pakistan, got away with everything. He sacked President, Chief justice and even Chief of army staff without anyone daring to challenge him. He was the only prime minister ever in Pakistan that had over two-third majority in Pakistan parliament and was thinking to become ameer-ul-momeneen with absolute power [before Nawaz, it was only Z A Bhutto that had simple majority but no one ever had two third majority, that is needed to change the constitution]. He had full cooperation of Pakistan army and had huge popularity and absolute control over Punjab (that matters a lot in Pakistan politics as well as army).

No army chief could have challenged him (not even someone from Punjab, like Jahangir Karamat) and Musharraf with his minority province background was least person that could have challenged him even while he was army chief.

** What really happened in Kargil can be anyone’s guess looking at the after event, that made a big proportion of army not only loyal to Musharraf and against Nawaz, but army loyalty to Musharraf became so unquestioned that it did not mattered if he was army chief or not.**

We should remember that when army acted on behalf of Musharraf in October 1999, Musharraf was officially not army chief, as Nawaz (however improperly) sacked him and thus in theory Musharraf was no more army chief, something army did not recognised.

Regardless, the event shows how popular Musharraf became in the army after Kargil and how villain Nawaz became in Pakistan army after Kargil. Even people of Pakistan know a lot about Kargil and villain character Nawaz played, that showed from the way people of Pakistan reacted when Nawaz was kicked out of power by army on behalf of Musharraf.** Obviously, for such change of fortune amongst army and amongst people of Pakistan, something special must have happened in Kargil that army also knows as well as most Pakistanis (whatever the propaganda by Indians, Pakistani politicians and west).**

The event along with villainous role played by politicians was such that Pakistani politicians became so scared that even they started doing propaganda against army and Kargil war.

**Note: 1999 coup was something special in history of coup. Musharraf was a sacked army chief (Nawaz has sacked him), and was not even in the country. Army could have easily kept quite and could have stayed aloof, but why not? The answer is obvious, that was: **

‘Hero of Kargil (aka Pervaiz Musharraf)’, a brilliant thinking general, intelligent and brave, one that gave army a precious victory in Kargil and showed Indian forces the gutter they belong, was sacked by the ‘villain of Kargil (aka Nawaz Shareef)’. This action of Nawaz, that turned a victory on ground into defeat on table and caused lot of army casualties by asking them to retreat, just to make USA happy (and to get few dollars in his foreign account), was too much for the army to accept.

Now, any person (other then complete retard) would realise that if Pakistan had lost Kargil war and Nawaz had saved them, army would have never acted on behalf of Musharraf against Nawaz and people of Pakistan would not have been happy by sacking of Nawaz and President Musharraf taking over Power in Pakistan.

Even if Kargil war was stalemate and Pakistan did not gave a big stick to Indian forces and won it, army would not have taken such step to kick the prime minister (that was one of the most popular prime minister ever in the army and Pakistan) on behalf of an army chief who was on paper sacked. Actually, IF Musharraf had lost the Kargil war and Nawaz saved them, army would have been happier to see Musharraf back and would have been more indebted to Nawaz.

**Thus, ground reality speaks itself for any one with little intelligence but retarded would still say ‘may na manu’ :smiley:

**If anyone that think they are not retarded and still wants to question my analysis, than give a logical answer to counter what I wrote, that is:

Why army would side with a sacked general if that general led them to a loosing war, against a prime minister if that prime minister really gave them face saving retreat?

Why no Pakistani came out on the road for the most popular prime minister ever (even in his own constituency Lahore) against a general that was unknown other then of kargil episode, if Kargil was lost war?

How Kargil made Musharraf popular and Nawaz villain in the eyes of Pakistanis (army and people alike) even though political government of Pakistan wanted things differently by doing propaganda against army, Musharraf and Kargil war (if Kargil war was a loosing war for Pakistan)?

And many more facts I raised above, etc, etc .. read the post again :smiley:

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

whats the proof of your analysis? :dixsi:

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

I will take the liberty to answer that, it was a known fact that if Pakistan would have held on to the Peaks of Kargil and Dras, All Indian troops (many 1000’s) on the Saichin Glacier would have perished for lack of Supplies, it was only matter of few more weeks.

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

Wsm77:

[quote]
whats the proof of your analysis?
[/quote]

Baba, proof of analysis is in the analysis, else what type of analysis can be done without discussing the proof? Read the post carefully, you will find the proofs in the analysis.

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

pakistani soldier, who died and there country refused to accept them, saying that they were freedom fighters and not pakistani soldiers ......

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

^^ :D
Kargil was not a war at all.

It was just a pratice session designed for Indian and Pakistan army. Some sort of realistic practice, you can say.

The Indian Army officers and jawans found the training session satisfactory, while even after the Kargil operation, The Pak army still wanted more practice .

With Sharif in power another training operation was not possible. So Mushrraf decided to take charge himself.

(shortly) there was a "war on terror", a training session designed and engineered for Allied troops. Due to its geographic location, Pak had to play its role in this war, money and weapons were freely available to army............

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

maihu_don:

[quote]
pakistani soldier, who died and there country refused to accept them, saying that they were freedom fighters and not pakistani soldiers ......
[/quote]

If you read my first post above, you would realise that kargil war had two phases: Pakistan won the war on the ground (phase one) and lost the war on the table (Phase two).

Kargil war on the ground (phase one): Pakistan gave stick to Indian forces and showed them the gutter. President Musharraf was the hero of this war. Indian lost thousands of elite soldiers without achieving anything. There were minimal Pakistani casualties and Pakistan gained control over huge areas (most peaks in the area) with Indian forces in Kashmir vulnerable.

Kargil war on the table (phase two): India complained to USA, Nawaz was called by Clinton and Nawaz (God knows for what reason) surrendered and thus agreed to withdraw from all areas Pakistan gained (hence in effect making a victorious war into a lost war). Actually, Nawaz declared to Clinton that all occupying Kashmir on Indian side were not Pakistani soldiers (thus denying them status as Pakistani soldier), regardless, Nawaz also agreed that he will use his influence on them to make them retreat. During this retreat (or withdrawal), Pakistan lost number of men that volunteered in this war.

That is what I mentioned in my post that:

**Kargil war made Musharraf hero (due to success of phase one when almost all casualties were on Indian side and Pakistan achieved complete control over vast area and most peaks in the area)* *

And

Kargil war made Nawaz villain (due to his surrendering on table in USA), resulting in withdrawing from captured areas and loosing lot of men due to this withdrawal. A part of what you mentioned belongs to this phase two, and it happened because those who captured the peaks in phase one were officially volunteers (fighting to free Kashmir) and Nawaz did not gave them status of Pakistani soldier, just to please his Master Clinton.

Note: Pakistan suffered minimal casualties during attacking, capturing, and holding phase (Phase one of the war under Musharraf). Most casualties Pakistan suffered was during withdrawal phase (Phase two of the war after Nawaz in USA agreed that Pakistan would withdraw)

Result: As mentioned in above post: Pakistan won the Kargil war on the ground (Phase one) but lost the kargil war on table (Phase two).

 **Consequence:** Army revolted against Nawaz. Nawaz was thrown out of power and army gave the power to Musharaf.

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

Good to see you back Sa1eem!

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

what ever you say ..... pakistan did not respect there dead soldiers ..... when pakistani authorities refused to accept the bodies, indian army burried them in kargil.

ABout the losses, as kargil war started , world new what pakistan meant by moral support to kashmiri terrosrists (Freedom fighters for you).

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

I see more emotions than sense in your statement. The reality is what you win on the ground you later win on the table, what you lose on the ground you also lose on the table..

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

In other words, you can't win on the table what you lose on the ground.

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

checkout the link and then tell me who lost the war.

http://www.dawn.com/2006/08/06/nat1.htm

its a source from pakistani newspaper so it must be true:D

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

Kargil was a poorly planned operation which caused great harm to kashmir issue, combination of an over ambitious, short sighted General and a dumb and incompetent Prime minister. It was planned by Musharraf as he claims it and approved by Nawaz Shareef otherwise he should have sacked Musharraf right away.
Yes indians suffered a lot more casualties but they were able to recapture all
the peaks one by one, when nawaz Shareef went to meet Clinton most of the lost territory was already recaptured by Indian troops.
People who think it was a great victory by our military should ponder as to why the brave army has not been able to recapture Siachen in 22 years now.If you occupy the mountain tops it is very difficult to dislodge that army. I find it hard to believe that Musharraf did nothing when nawaz shareef allegedly ordered to withdraw and lost no time in taking over the government when he was sacked as army chief, this tells you about the hidden lie in his side of the story. Pakistan had to withdraw because of international pressure and the fact that Indian army was ready to cross the international border and just like the 1965 war our great commanders were not ready for it.
Since both nawaz shareef and musharraf are lying they will never establish an official inquiry into the fiasco.

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

Haris Zuberi: brother thanks.

Shawaiz_K:

[quote]
I see more emotions than sense in your statement. The reality is what you win on the ground you later win on the table, what you lose on the ground you also lose on the table..
[/quote]

Who told you this BS? Nawaz Shareef, his goons, Indian or Pakistani politicians, or media paid by vested interests to misguide, is that what your sources is. and you do not spend any time to think. You should ask that if what they are saying, is reality (and truth), then why Pakistan army sided with Musharaf and thrown Nawaz out of power.

If you had all the reports published in western media at that time (and just after 12th October, when Nawaz was ousted) and also had spent some time to analyse what really happened from obvious facts, you would not have got misguided by Indians and Pakistani goon politicians.

Well, I just made true analysis from events that followed Kargil war (something all can see). I did not referred to statements of people regarding Kargil war, that is shrouded by vested interests (that includes Pakistani politicians, especially Nawaz Shareef and his goons and Indian politicians and media) making statement contrary to reality, just to misguide people.

As for your statement (that is said by many in recent past)

[quote]
In other words, you can't win on the table what you lose on the ground.
[/quote]

It seems that you do not know (or understand) the meaning of winning and loosing. Winning and loosing is all comparative words.

When we say that ‘Pakistan lost the kargil war on table’, it only means that Pakistan lost on the table (negotiation) the achievements that Pakistan made earlier on the ground (what Pakistan won on the ground). It does not mean that Pakistan lost the war neither it means that India won the war.

Note: when word ‘on the ground’ is used, it means war with soldiers or ground realities achieved by whatever means. As for when word ‘on the table’ is used, it means negotiation, agreements, or treaties that do not necessarily involve ground realities.

If anyone believes that India won Kargil war, then these people should tell what India really won? Did they capture any Pakistani territory or what?

Actual reality is that, they did not even manage to liberate the land that Pakistan occupied. What India did was, ran to USA begging to intervene. When Indian aircrafts tried to cross Pakistan side of LOC, Pakistan shot them down, and later Indian planes never dared. No Indian military personals dared to cross LOC.

If India had managed to liberate occupied land militarily (that they did not) than also it could not be called victory, regardless they could not even liberate any land occupied and that is why words you will always see used was ‘withdrawal of Pakistani forces’. Withdrawal does not mean ‘got repulsed’ but it means a voluntary action of occupying force leaving the occupation.

Regardless, ground reality again shows that Pakistan army did not liked that withdrawal neither saw the war as failure (there must be reason) and that is why, Nawaz overnight became villain of Kargil (though Nawaz and Nawaz thugs, Indians, Indian press and some characterless politicians are doing all what they can, to make people believe otherwise).

Nevertheless, ‘you can't win on the table what you lose on the ground’ is a concocted statement. If this statement had any truth, then there would have been no negotiation ever. Many times in history, what one lost on ground one gained on table (by talking or negotiation).

Just imagine, in 1973 Arab-Israel war, Israel did not lost Sinai (Egypt did not pushed Israel anywhere more then 12 miles east of Suez canal) rather at places, south edge of Suez canal, Israel forces crossed Suez canal and occupied lands on western side of Suez canal too. Egyptian whole division (around 20000 men) east/south-east of Suez canal, in Sinai, were surrounded by Israelis. Still, on table negotiation backed by USA and USSR, Israelis had to pull out and eventually Israelis pulled out of whole Sinai (that many Egyptians claim as victory).

In October 1956, Israel along with France and Britain (in reaction of Nasser nationalising of Suez canal July 1956), attacked and captured Sinai and also took complete control of Suez canal (both sides of Suez canal) but when America warned, Israel-France-UK combined forces pulled out (withdrew as what Pakistan forces did in Kargil). Thus, Egypt won in nationalising Suez canal (UK and France interest in Suez canal) then lost it on ground, still won it on table (exactly in similar way India got Kargil back). Germany Japan lost the war still negotiated independence (West Germany and Japan) on table. West Germany did not won any war still got back East Germany, on table negotiation.

As from Islamic history, ‘mahada-e-Hudaybia’ is an example given many times by many, where Muslim claim that Muslims won Mecca on table (treaty of Hudaybia) and did not really had to get involved in war to win Mecca.

Well, there are many such examples. The only difference what Nawaz did was negotiated away the territory that rightfully belongs to Pakistan and Pakistan liberated it from occupiers, but Nawaz just to make USA happy, gave it back to the occupier (India). He should have argued with USA that the territory actually belongs to Pakistan and LOC is a meaningless line.

(Z A Bhutto negotiated away Kargil heights in Shimla agreement, though before Shimla agreement, all those heights were under Pakistan control. Siachin was also under Pakistan control and India captured it from Pakistan after Shimla agreement, and thus Shimla accord finished after Siachin. That means Pakistan had all the right to capture Kargil heights and keep it as long as Pakistan can defend it and Nawaz Shareef did wrong to negotiate it away. Something now Nawaz and his goons are trying to justify by feeding wrong facts).

chintu_bhopali: Who told you that Pakistan newspaper is word of God? And who told you that Nawaz goons are spreading truth? If Nawaz goons (the whole article refer to them and their sayings) are telling truth then why they do not also tell us that after kargil fiasco (as they want Pakistanis to believe), why army kicked Nawaz and sided with Musharaf?

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

Ya you r absolutely 100% right and herez the source from well reputated site

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

Symk:
All what you wrote about India recapturing the heights, are complete lies. If Indian were that capable, they would not wait to attack even Pakistan held Kashmir and capture that. If Indian were that capable, it would have been much easier for India to capture Pakistani held Kashmir then recapture those heights. Reality is that, all what Indians were doing in Kargil was sacrificing the life of their soldiers without any achievements. They lost thousands of soldiers and re-captured nothing.

According to western media (if you have access to British newspaper of that time and of October 1999), go and read all what was written about Kargil war, instead of spreading baseless lies.

** Regardless, if you think that India was recapturing the heights and that Pakistani military was in trouble, please tell that then why Military kicked Nawaz Shareef out of power and supported a sacked army chief Musharaf (whit whom they should have been unhappy if what you say is true).**

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

By your logic, how can you take Mushy's word as truth ? He has lied so many times in the past - how are you so sure he is telling the truth about Kargil ?

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

Don;t be naive, has our army ever prosecuted or punished one of their own, even after 1971 they did nothing, who was held responsible after we lost siachen under a military government? Our military has great reputation of protecting their interests
It is good to be patriotic but keep your eyes open.
What stopped India to attack azad kashmir was Clinton, go and read the archives of our newspapers, musharraf himself went to the airport to see off nawas shareef when he left for USA on the SOS mission

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

And the report quoted is by the political party in power at the time, with a vested interest in trying to undermind an embarass Musharraf.

Whilst the newspaper is not biased, the report in the article clearly is.

Re: Who really won Kargil war?

Babuji

Did I say that I am taking Mushy’s or anyone words as truth? Maybe I missed something I wrote in my post, so please quote from my post above anywhere I said that or even referred (or even quoted) Mushy’s or anyone’s words. :slight_smile: What I know, I never said what you are accusing me of saying. :slight_smile:
**
Hollowman:**
Most in wikipedia is propaganda by Indians, read #1](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=4437027&postcount=1) (from mercenary2k who also write on wikipedia), so you want me to believe propaganda in front of reality?

As for your statement:

Seems that you did not read my mail and still want to comment on that, shows how responsible you are :slight_smile:

Read below carefully, a quote from my earlier post:

(Z A Bhutto negotiated away Kargil heights in Shimla agreement, though before Shimla agreement, all those heights were under Pakistan control. Siachin was also under Pakistan control and India captured it from Pakistan after Shimla agreement, and thus Shimla accord finished after Siachin. That means Pakistan had all the right to capture Kargil heights and keep it as long as Pakistan can defend it and Nawaz Shareef did wrong to negotiate it away. Something now Nawaz and his goons are trying to justify by feeding wrong facts).

As for India as responsible country: That is what responsible India is. Even during Kargil war, India tried to cross LOC, but after getting a big stick (loosing men and few aircrafts) they stopped. As for Indian responsible as nation, all know how responsible they are. Gujrat riot, Babri Mosque demolition, Golden temple invasion, killing in Assam, capturing of Kashmir, Goa, Junagarh, Hyderabad, Travancore etc, etc .. shows their responsibility. A country where most minorities live in fear of their lives, no doubt India must be a very responsible country :slight_smile: (Actually, India is a very irresponsible and barbaric country).