Who is the winner?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Not that I like the Taliban and whatever they represent (to the contrary, I have much disliking for them), I still wanted them to give a good fight to the americans. But the way they have succumbed to the onslaught of the americans, has been very disappointing.

So, I was wondering whether it should be taken as the defeat of what we, the Muslims, represent, as opposed to what is represented by the west. You know, the americans have been saying this thing over and over again: We are the good guys, God is with us. Now isn’t this exactly what we believe about ourselves?

There can be so many aspects to this thing.

Probably, whatever brand of Islam that was represented by the Taliban has been defeated and Muslims should take a hint from this and try to be more moderate in religion. Probably, the Jihadi way of revival of Islam is not the best way, and we should look for other methods. Probably, christians and jews are infact the good guys. Or probably, its just too early that I am posting such a topic over here, and we should wait and let time be the judge.

2

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Scratch:
**So, I was wondering whether it should be taken as the defeat of what we, the Muslims, represent, as opposed to what is represented by the west. **

errrr taleban did not represent me. so how does their retreat mean a defeat of my faith, which is not at war to begin with in my view. I am a muslim and I am a westerner, am I at war with myself. is there incompatibility in my faith and other aspects of my identity.. i dont believe so.

** You know, the americans have been saying this thing over and over again: We are the good guys, God is with us. Now isn’t this exactly what we believe about ourselves? **

sure everyone believes that, with the probable exception of devil worshippers. No one wanst to think that they are wrong. when was the last time anyone said, oh yeah we will fight because we are evil and we are wrong and we are going after the good guys. Both parties believe that they are the good guys.

**Probably, whatever brand of Islam that was represented by the Taliban has been defeated and Muslims should take a hint from this and try to be more moderate in religion. Probably, the Jihadi way of revival of Islam is not the best way, and we should look for other methods. **

I agree that we as muslims should be much more proactive. the silent majority needs to speak up and not let fringe groups lead their agenda in our names.

correct me if I am wrong, but the taleban brand of islam has been around, so the defeat of Taleban does not mean jack. good they retreated, and good that al qaeda has been dealt major blows. except for a subset this was never viewed as a war against Islam and it is not.

**Probably, christians and jews are infact the good guys. **

so by this token if tomorrow someone goes bombs tha bajeezis out of Israel, you will say judaism has lost and others are infact the good guys?

Frankly it does not make sense. who is saying that christians or jews are the bad guys, or the good guys or that muslims are the bad guys or the good guys?

**Or probably, its just too early that I am posting such a topic over here, and we should wait and let time be the judge. **

from a military perspective you are right its too early. Taleban may have retreated but the war is not fully won. and its really not the Taleban that are the target, but Al qaeda..Taleban paid the price for lending a blind eye to these guys and not controling them. So anyone who believes that from a military point of view, the war has been won is incorrect.

Wars are not always won by those who are right, but by those who are stronger

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

and even though I believe that teh right side is winning. the side losing is not of Islam, but of a group that happens to be muslim, or however close you can be to that if you call yourtself muslim, take insane actions in its name yet enjoy strip joints and all.

3

[quote]
Originally posted by Scratch:
....But the way they have succumbed to the onslaught of the americans, has been very disappointing.

Don't forget their "isolation" from world community. They didn't have enough arsenal to begin with, so if they still stood against tyranny is enough proof that they are bold.

I'm not quite familiar with how they fought Russians, but from around I learnt that this is what happened when Russia invaded Afghanistan. Mujahideen went to mountains and waged guerilla war. But again, they were helped by American ammunition and this time their biggest supporters (Pak & Saudi) have backed out.

So, I was wondering whether it should be taken as the defeat of what we, the Muslims, represent, as opposed to what is represented by the west.

I don't think that this can be considered as 'defeat of faith'.

You know, the americans have been saying this thing over and over again: We are the good guys, God is with us.

We all know how "good" Christians are today (I'm not saying that all Christians are bad). They have corrupted their faith (esp the Trinity concept), they have made 'haraam' as 'halaal' so how can they be considered 'good'. They can call themselves good from "humanitarian" aspect which is a different religion.

**Now isn't this exactly what we believe about ourselves?

There can be so many aspects to this thing.**

No. We are Muslims but we will not be good until we follow our faith sincerely, completely and humbly. But when we look around, we are so insincere with ourselves how can we be sincere with others especially our religion? Look at our hypocricy? Look at our moral, social, economical, judicial, institutional corruption... and you'll figure how good a Muslim we are today. A very minute number of good Muslims exists today and sadly they form a 'silent' audience.

Probably, whatever brand of Islam that was represented by the Taliban has been defeated

Again, NO, no form of Islam has been defeated. Yes, Taleban may have lost "media" war, but that does not mean Islam has lost.

** and Muslims should take a hint from this and try to be more moderate in religion. Probably, the Jihadi way of revival of Islam is not the best way, and we should look for other methods.**

Long before we talk about "revival of Islam" we need to overhaul ourselves, as an individual as well as a nation.

*Probably, christians and jews are infact the good guys. Or probably, its just too early that I am posting such a topic over here, and we should wait and let time be the judge.
*

Good guys are those who beleive in Allah and follow his commands. Allah will be the judge who is good and who is not. A war or any other incident/event cannot be considered as a win/loose of a religion.

[/quote]

4

For those who think the war is over.

Do you seriously think it was all about terrorism of 11 September?

I believe very strongly about the conspiracy theory and feel that it is a war against Islam. The Zionists want us to be docile and submissive to their demands. Which some of you have already reconciled to according to yur posts.

Philipines is next. All Muslims will be killed, made murthid or submissive.

Iraq is the punching bag for the last ten years.

Libya has been classified as a country run by a mad man.

A time will come when you guys will be so docile that you will be happy with whatever you get. Today you are the least concerned when mujahideen are slaughtered in Afghanistan. Tomorrow your backside will be kicked and you will be grateful that it wasn't more painful.

5

..and all this while the Saudi Princes will keep indulging in their ‘ayyashees’ and throw ‘khairaat’ at poor misguided pakistani kids in madrassahs who think they are protecting Islam

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Let’s grow up as a nation from this delusion of being ‘Islam’s Qila’ and having the ‘Islamic Bomb’ and get some education and jobs and do something constructive for a change then to oppress our women, measure religion by the length of beards or contemplate our next militarily asinine armed revolt against some super power.

Whenever fools are willing to give their life for some ridiculous cause they are obliged by those willing to take it.

6

Ok, this is “one” of the ways I look at this whole Taliban situation: Taliban implemented Islam in the most strict sense. No country in the modern world has done anything like that. From basic things like the social behavior of a citizen to the bigger issues about how the country should be run. “Some” (not all of course; not people like you and me who would like to be called moderate/liberal) people, specially religious circles, all over the Muslim do “actually” (dont say I am wrong here because there do exist such elements; and these are precisely the elements, to wholm the general Muslim populace of a country look upto for religious guidance) believe that Afghanistan during the Taliban regime was as closest to what a Muslim state as there can be.

So the mullah community was under the impression that since Taliban were as good Muslims as there can be, (dont start jumping on me now, I am trying to look at this from extremists’ perspective

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

) so it should be taken for granted that Allah’s help will be right there for them, and theres no way that they can be defeated.

But this did not happen. So what is there any worthwhile conclusion that can drawn from this situation (probably some of the things that I mentioned in my first post)?

7

I consider it Allah's warning to those who become self appointed 'caliphs' of Allah and start 'creating' new rules and regulations.

Allah has helped Islam by crushing these misguided people and will always crush idolators who forget what allah commands and go following commandments issued or instated by human beings.

8

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**I consider it Allah's warning to those who become self appointed 'caliphs' of Allah and start 'creating' new rules and regulations.

Allah has helped Islam by crushing these misguided people and will always crush idolators who forget what allah commands and go following commandments issued or instated by human beings.**
[/quote]

I tend to think on the same lines. Probably, this is God's way of showing that Taliban's way is not the way to go; and something more progressive needs to be done.

9

How about this:
http://www.gupistan.com/gallery/1/tmpdefeat.gif

You (Muslims) are the best nation ever raised among the mankind: (because) you
advocate righteousness and FORBID EVIL, and you believe in (one) GOD (ALLAH).
(Sura: Aalay-Imran; Ayat:110)

Sitaaron Pay Jo Daltay Hain Kamand!

Shaheen=An Eagle or A Flacon!
(And yes it’s a MALE Shaheen :wink:

10

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**I consider it Allah's warning to those who become self appointed 'caliphs' of Allah and start 'creating' new rules and regulations.

Allah has helped Islam by crushing these misguided people and will always crush idolators who forget what allah commands and go following commandments issued or instated by human beings.**
[/quote]

I would not venture to:
1. Assume what Allah has willed, and,
2. To judge anybody.

This may even be a trial for you and me, in which we may have failed by not supporting the group that is standing up for Islam.

It is a time for concern for the Ummah. I am reminded of the hadeeth in which Prophet Mohammad (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) said that a tiime will come when people will come on Muslims like hungry men come on food. He was asked whetehr we will be less in number and he replied that we will be great in number, but weak otherwise. Our eeman today is very low. As somebody mentioned the other day, most of us are today following the sunnah of the kuffar in the west and are content in it.

May Allah guide us.

11

[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
** I am reminded of the hadeeth in which Prophet Mohammad (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) said that a tiime will come when people will come on Muslims like hungry men come on food. He was asked whetehr we will be less in number and he replied that we will be great in number, but weak otherwise. Our eeman today is very low. As somebody mentioned the other day, most of us are today following the sunnah of the kuffar in the west and are content in it.

May Allah guide us.

**
[/quote]

Ameen!
here is the hadith you were refering to... jazak Allah-O-khairan!:

Thawban reported that the Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said: "The People will soon summon one another to attack you as people when eating invite others to share their dish. Someone asked: Will that be because of our small numbers at that time? He replied: No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be scum and rubbish like that carried down by a torrent, and Allah will take fear of you from the breasts of your enemy and cast Wahn in your hearts. Someone asked: What is Wahn? The Prophet sallallahualaihi wa sallam replied: (Hubb-ud-Dunya wa karaahi yatil maut) Love of the world and hatred of death." (Related by Imam Ahmad with strong chains of narrators, and Abu Dawud).

You (Muslims) are the best nation ever raised among the mankind: (because) you
advocate righteousness and FORBID EVIL, and you believe in (one) GOD (ALLAH).

(Sura: Aalay-Imran; Ayat:110)

**Sitaaron Pay Jo Daltay Hain Kamand!**

Shaheen=An Eagle or A Flacon!
(And yes it's a **MALE* Shaheen ;-)*

12

Jazak Allah!

13

[quote]
I am reminded of the hadeeth in which Prophet Mohammad (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) said that a tiime will come
[/quote]

which reminds me of Allahs ayat's in the Qur'an which explicitly state that the Prophet did NOT have any knowledge of the unseen.

If you think Taleban's Islam was the 'right' Islam.. well you're welcome to join them and support them. It's your choice. I sure hope your current or future wife knows of your aspirations towards women.

14

So, I was wondering whether it should be taken as the defeat of what we, the Muslims, represent, as opposed to what is represented by the west. You know, the americans have been saying this thing over and over again: We are the good guys, God is with us. Now isn't this exactly what we believe about ourselves?

Many Americans are good guys. Many are not. Don't let it question your faith. This is what some minister says. It makes a little bit of sense.

"God wills that human justice hold sway among governments, and between citizens and civil authority. He does not prescribe that governments always turn the other cheek. The government “does not bear the sword for nothing.” Police have the God-given right to use force to restrain evil and bring law-breakers to justice. And legitimate states have the God-given right to restrain life-threatening aggression and bring criminals to justice.

Just maybe the Taliban also believed they were right! So did the US. Most likely and assuradly neither one was perfectly right, and in my thinking God understands that.

15

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** which reminds me of Allahs ayat's in the Qur'an which explicitly state that the Prophet did NOT have any knowledge of the unseen.**
[quote]

Ilm-e-ghayb is only with Allah. But He enables some prophecies to be made in His scheme of things. For example, Eesa (alaihe salam) prophesied the coming of Rasool Allah(sallalalaho alaihe wasallam).

**
[quote]
If you think Taleban's Islam was the 'right' Islam.. well you're welcome to join them and support them. It's your choice. I sure hope your current or future wife knows of your aspirations towards women.**
[/quote]

Why not? I am not afraid of death and would be willing to strive for Islam any time. My wife is also willing to join me.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

16

[quote]
But He enables some prophecies to be made in His scheme of things.
[/quote]

and I'm supposed to agree just because you have come up with this convoluted theory? I just don't get people who defy CLEAR Qur'anic verses to continue believing in what they were brought up believing. Amazing.

btw there is still some action in Kandahar; care to put your money where your mouth is?

17

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** and I'm supposed to agree just because you have come up with this convoluted theory? I just don't get people who defy CLEAR Qur'anic verses to continue believing in what they were brought up believing. Amazing.**
[/quote]

I have given the evidence. Agreeing or disagreeing is your choice. I can only pray for people who think they know more religion than they actually do. Even very learned scholars I have met have always been humble and have projected themselves as students, which indeed they are. But its the people who think they know, when in actual fact they don't get me wondering. But I believe it takes all types to make this world.

**
[quote]
btw there is still some action in Kandahar; care to put your money where your mouth is?**
[/quote]

Insolence is not something I will respond to.

Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.

18

[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
** Insolence is not something I will respond to.
**
[/quote]

This is actually a very good tactic not to answer anything.
You know, Taliban will never be more worse off, than what they are right now. You should really be acting on what you say.