who is the greatest (only from a genuine fast bowling perspective).....waqar or wasim

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ehsan: *
I find it very annoying that instead of enjoying the fact that we have had two of the best bowlers in the history of cricket, we are busy carrying out character aassaination of them. Both Waqar and Wasim were great bowlers, both had their strengths. Wasim has attained the status of a legend while Waqar is not far behind. I have had the pleasure of watching both of them in action and together they have destroyed many batting line ups around the world.

Be proud of what these two gave to our nation rather than getting involved in mud slinging.
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Well i dont realy agree with u ehsan bhi (honestly i did not expect it from aperson of ur knowledge) just because Akram was a great player (the greatest player of Last Decade) did not give him any right to treat the people the way he treated!!! THIS IS PAKISTAN CRICKET FOR GOD SAKE.
He destroyed the Pakistani cricket with his dirty politics.what he lacked the most was professionalism!!!to me it never seemed like(specially after he lost his captaincy in 94) as if he ever thought about Pakistan cricket, he always thought that Pakistan Needed him, He did not need Pak.
Just because he did well for Pak on # of Occeasion is not the reason i'll forgive him for all other things. HE DID WELL, HE WAS A PROFESSIONAL, That WAS HE JOB, Thats what he was supposed to do that was what he was paid for.

Wasim is one of the alltime great bowlers in the history of cricket.His pace,line,length,swing,cuts,nips,zing,skid were all exceptional.He was intelligent bowler as well.He was simplya magician with a ball in his hands.Waqar will always be known as a tearaway fast bowler who used to scare batsmen out instead of intelligently getting them out.But after him losing his awesome pace...he became rather a mediocre bowler(even though he kept on taking wickets but at not quite the same rate as he used to).But the Waqar of the early 90's is spent.Also Wasim's tight bowling on one end could be one reason why he took as many wickets as he did(not to take anything away from Waqar) as batsmen started to go after Waqar as they found Wasim difficult to score from which resulted in Waqar getting them due to Batsmen's aggressive intent against him as he was equally or more resilient and aggressive.But Wasim's class was apart his best bowling spell coming at the time,best when he could have produced one...The World Cup 1992 Finals!!Wasim Rulz!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Corporate Spy: *
But the Waqar of the early 90's is spent.Also Wasim's tight bowling on one end could be one reason why he took as many wickets as he did(not to take anything away from Waqar) as batsmen started to go after w\Waqar as the yfound Wasim difficult to score from which resulted in !
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Oh give me break Man or u trying to tell us that the reason Richard Hadlee, Dennis Lillee Marshall, Bothem Took more wickets coz at the other end, Thompson, Len Passcoo, Euaan Chattefield, Garner-Holding-Roberts, and willis were Tight Line and lenght Bowlers.?

It could be the reason...tht they took wickets.Just a supposition.And that is taking nothing away from the prodigious talent of waqar.

ya know what guys, I am not a cricket jedi like y'all so teh sats are good 'n stuff

but what I would like to know is, which one provided match winning performances, i.e. if the person was not there the match would not have been won.

lemme give you an example from footie

we can compare 2 strikers and see that one had more goals per match.. but then if you look closely the guy who had less goals per match had more winnign goals..ctach mah drift..

so educate me on these bowlers from that point of view.

and dunn be playa hatin'... each of these guys made tons of contributions to pak side..

Wasim was always a better match winner then Waqar, I still believe if Wasim played 96 QF against Ind, we would have won the match.
Waqar was a natural wicket taker but his ability to give dozens of runs in pressure situations always let him down.
I would pick Wasim as a better fast bowler.

thank you very much for all the input…

Thank you very much guys for all the input.

I guess it is obvious from the above discussion that we are split on the issue of who was better in 2 Ws. That is why i provided statistics at the beginning of this thread because it is always easier to make a decision based on statistics. But i do understand that some time a player’s caliber is not truly reflected by statistics only. zaheer abbas is an excellent example. his test statistics are just OK but they do not reflect his true ability as well as talent. Having said that, the importance of “quantative data” can not be ignored either.

Based on statistics, waqar younis is far ahead of wasim akram… 952 first class wickets as compared to wasim 1042 wickets by bowling almost 2ooo overs less…again these are the statistics and we can not take the credit away from waqar for proudcing these statistics.

Talent wise…both were extremely talented but I consider waqar more intelligent than wasim. Imran on numerous occasions admitted that waqar was better and fast learner and i also gave an example of reverse swing. wasim was never able to use it between 1984 to 1990 even though he was under direct supervision of imarn for all these years but when waqar emerged in 90s he learnt it right away and whole world became aware of this magic. Later on he became wasim closest friend (1989 to 1992) and wasim also became good with reverse swing.

But then wut was wasim strength…i guess his unbelievable twisting action which allowed him to swing the ball in both directions without requiring a lot of speed. Instead of bringing his “delivering hand” from his back or away from his body ( like most of the pace bowlers do including waqar and Thompson, Lillie), he was naturally inclined to deliver the bowl with a perfect angle between his both arms (very close to the body) and wicket…he was extremely dangerous when he was able to take a high jump in his earlier days but even in his later days, he was able to deliver both speed and swing by taking few steps because of his twisting action. remember Damien martin wicket on first ball in 2003 world cup against Australia… in essence, there have been more reliable bowlers, faster bowlers, more accurate bowlers, but there cannot have been any with as wide a range of deliveries as wasim akram.

Waqar may have one of the best fast bowling action but his action was his biggest enemy too…People do argue that today’s Waqar is not the same in terms of speed and aggressiveness as the one who completed his first 50 test wickets in only 10 matches and 150 in 28 test, whose strength would lie on the deadly combination of explosive pace and reverse swing with which he would shatter stumps or bruise toes of even world class batsmen. At 29 years of age, the youth and exuberance of a fast bowler is definitely over the hill. But Waqar has gone a lot more mature as a bowler. He has deliberately cut down upon his pace as a result of which his line and length is far more precise than what it used to be and he goes for a far lesser amount of runs. The same Waqar who would solely rely upon his pace to overcome the opposition, now cleverly plays with the weaknesses of the batsmen. He has also gained more control over his out-swingers which adds to the immense ambiguities facing the batsmen.

In essence, wasim akram has an edge over waqar in terms of longevity of the career but only because of his natural action.

Now who produced more wins for pakistan… tell u wut…when u talk abt wasim and waqar they were the true partner in the crime…i would never forget the 1992 series when wasim became the captin for the first time and took the team to south africa…guess wut…we beat SA three times in a row and every time waqar and wasim did the magic (real magic) in last 10 overs when the ball become little old…those golden days…these two did this magic so many times, so many times, in sharja, in England, in NZ, in Australia that our whole generation became used to these miracles…trust me these two spoiled us…now unintentionally, we expect the same magic from minnows like shoaib and sami…but we forget that they r not WS…however, because of waqar ability of taking bulk of wickets in few overs provides him an edge over wasim in this matter… remember waqar took 4 or more than 4 wickets 27 times as compared to wasim 23 times and not to mention that akram played almost 85 one day matches more than waqa.

some people argued that why r we wasting our time by discussing old WS… well it is not wastage of time because it was a serious discussion… and trust me… in coming 50 yrs, fast bowling in Pakistan will always be judged either against waqar or wasim…

In the end, on a bitter note, yes, wasim had a bad influence on Pakistani cricket…yes wasim is responsible for playin with careers of many many players… yes wasim is extremly negative minded if he gets annoyed of some one…yes wasim did not produce one single player for Pakistan and yes wasim destroyed waqar career between 1996 to 1999 when he was still very fast and was able to break kapil dev record… but u know wut… there was only one akram in this whole world… with that famous passionate celebration after getting a wicket…

and I can not have a better ending for this thread but to post this article about WS published in a prominent Indian newspaper HINDU. We all love WS but their real greatness is depicted by the fact that some1 admired them across the border too….

At his peak Waqar may have been better by a bit. But Wasim was a great match winner no doubt.
A question though, Was Waqar ever suspected of match fixing like Wasim was? (I ask because I don't know)
That would certainly be a deciding factor for me.

desi from phonex

u took my words on 2 Ws

I love u so much.....

Seeing these two Ws in action in my late teens/early 20ies was one of the exciting part of my life.......
I am gonna miss the spee/action/thrill/drama/devestation these 2 produced in field...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Nibss: *
desi from phonex

u took my words on 2 Ws

I love u so much.....

Seeing these two Ws in action in my late teens/early 20ies was one of the exciting part of my life.......
I am gonna miss the spee/action/thrill/drama/devestation these 2 produced in field...
[/QUOTE]

thanks nibsss.. i was just being honest and`straight....

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by elahi: *
A question though, Was Waqar ever suspected of match fixing like Wasim was? (I ask because I don't know)
That would certainly be a deciding factor for me.
[/QUOTE]

Yes he was not only suspected but also fined along with Akram and Saeed Anwar.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by UMAIR316: *
Wasim was always a better match winner then Waqar, I still believe if Wasim played 96 QF against Ind, we would have won the match.
Waqar was a natural wicket taker but his ability to give dozens of runs in pressure situations always let him down.
I would pick Wasim as a better fast bowler.
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Wasim did play against india in both WC '99 and '03 editions...and Ind won!So...supposition dosen't work...buddy...its only real thing tht works.What would ur reaction be if i say tht batsmen like Sunny,Sachin,Etc...didn't perform in the matches tht India lost agst Pak when u speak about he 52-30 win-loss record of pak agst Ind.But I would be heavily criticized for tht saying...as its only reality tht counts.

Wasim Akram is the best !! The statistics doesn't provides the most true picture.He has been unlucky mostly as well.

Re: who is the greatest (only from a genuine fast bowling perspective).....waqar or w

Gone are those days when people on KK would try to argue like this...argument based on their knowledge of game, regardless of availablity of high speed internet connections and cricinfo (which (excuse my language) have created %&^^# "know nothing' cricket fans)....reading it after 3 years reminded me of what wonderful place KK once was.

Re: who is the greatest (only from a genuine fast bowling perspective).....waqar or w

Oh bhai kahan say ukhar kar layay... garay murday ko...

This is the same kind of revival Pakistan cricket needs...lolz...

Re: who is the greatest (only from a genuine fast bowling perspective).....waqar or w

Honestly i dont know how i ended up in that thread..sorry about getting little emotional and brining it up! But i do belive that that period was peek of KK.

Re: who is the greatest (only from a genuine fast bowling perspective).....waqar or w

Wasim is better ,Ask any top batsman in the world .It is not all abt wkts ,how u dominate a batsman is also a matter .For example u are being slaughtered and still take wkts .one would feel like ,he took wkts ,but not got any respect from the batsmen .
Again in numbers Wasim 17 Man of the match awards
Waqar 8 man of the match awards .

Re: who is the greatest (only from a genuine fast bowling perspective).....waqar or w

If I make a Pakistan team of all time greats, I'll include both Akram n Waqar in my team both were greats.