After partiton Punjab was partitioned between India and Pakistan. I think Pakistani Punjab stayed undivided. Howwever, Indian Punjab was divided to form two new states, Himachal Pradesh and Haryana. They wwere broken off I think in 1961. Himachal is a hill state and Haryanana’s main language was Hindi. I think that Hartana’s language was actually Punjabi but they switched it (population is majority hindu). This also reminds me of the often heard saying that sikhs r the true punjabis. they r the ones that care most for the language and culture. Himachalis speak Pahari (a dialect of Hindi) and I am not sure if they r culturally Punjabis but Haryanvis are. For the language issue of Punjab in Pakistan I think maybe about 2/3 rds or 3/4ths of the pakistani punjab speaks the main dialect of punjabi. the others speak seraiki and hinko. there are about 25-30 million speakers of punjabi proper in india maybe 60-70 in pak not sure. if haryanvis and himachalis were considered punjabi that would add another 35-40 million indian punjabis. I’ll need Channs and Rani’s assistance on this thread as i’m not punjabi and im not sure how many other indian punjabis are on this board.
Being a Punjabi, in my opinion, is an ethnicity. And such ethnicities are not bound to political geographical boundaries.
My purkh (elders) were Sikhs and before that we maybe Hindus or Muslims who knows.
Vivek you r a victim of narrow education ignorent focus & deceptive omission of Govt.of India weho gave you a distorted education of all things its own recent past not over 52 yrs ago
I neednt say more & you can re educate yourself.I met a south indian girl ,& by punjabi she opnly knew Hindu Punjabi …
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif
I guess you will next ask about Urdu speaking ,Bengali Sindhi ,all of them are out side india too.
Wohi Hota Hai Jo Munzoore Khuda Hota Hai …:nahnah:
dude, i was born and brought up in the u.s. u sound like that weirdo/weirdos azad munna and fatima. By the way what exactly are u trying to say? Yeah i know urdu speakers, bengalis, and sindhis r outside of india. Yes i know punjabis r muslim, hindu and sikh and even christian but my point of that statement was sikhs r considered more punjabi than muslims and hindus because unlike the hindus and muslims they didnt turn to speaking hindi or urdu like a large number of hindus and muslims did and perhaps some other factors. By the way what is your ethnic background?
well in india i see a clear divide the sikhs think they are true punjabis and speak punjabi while hindu punjabis prefer to speak hindi (this is outside the state of punjab)
Vivek, Punjabi is not a ethnicity in the strict sense of the word. The region of Punjab(s) has been very unstable from population migration point of view. People of many ethnicities and colors have come and settled in this region over the last thousands of years...some moved out and new ones came in. Most historian beleive most of present inhabitant of Punjab are not from here/natives...one time or the other they migrated to Punjab plains...most of them Its culture is also an amalgamation of Islamic, Hindu, Sikh, Afghan etc and other ancient(vedic, Budhist etc)cultures and traditions. The language has words from many other languages that came with people or touched people through rulers(Mughals, British), invaders(mughals, Briths, Afghans, Turkish), merchants(Afghans, Persian, Hindus), migrants(Mohajirs, Mughals, Aryans) or migrant laborers(like now UP/Bihar laborers).
In the modern world when communications and global awareness about other people's foods, dresses and way of life is getting influenced tremendously...people in Punjab are eating Pizzas, People in New York are eating chicken cuRy and saag etc etc...the language has become a mark of distinction or ethnicity. Two person whose elders lived in Punjab for hundreds of years have now migrated and living one in Norwey and other in Dallas. They both have aquired different taste of food, different sense of dress/fashion and live in totally different cultural environments but if they were to meet, their language(Punjabi, if they know) will bind them together instantly. One can argue they are now two different people...fine..they are to some extent but if they have to test their Punjabiness..it is ony possible by the fact if they speak Punjabi...otherwise they are just two migrants whose elders once lived in Punjab before they lived somewhere else.
As you know issue of language has become an issue of religion in Punjab. Sikhism having born in Punjab does not conflict with local culture or language so it is easy for Sikhs to be Punjabis and claim to be better Punjabis than others. In my view this attitude has damaged Punjabi language to an irrepairable extent. Their is nothing in sikhism that says you have to be Punjabi but because of home grown religion they have embraced Punjabi totally and claimed themselves to be the rightfull owners of Punjabi although they are minority of the original Punjab population. about 15% Sikhs, 25-30% Hindus, 55-60% Muslims. I think if it were not for the religion divisions Punjabi Muslims would have made the most contribution to Punjabi language and literature. In my view the day Punjabi Muslim embraces Punjabi language in total, it will be a new era for Punjabi and it will be the most popular and vibrant language from the sub-continent.
Some clarification on the previous post written in hurry.
When I say Punjabis are not one ethnicity I mean it..racially not one..not of one skin color, physical appearance etc...other than that behavorially they are certainly one ethnicity. You take any extra influence of religion and education...underneath they have same colors...e.g. I have many times seen Pakistani Punjabis and Indian ones react or act the same way to certain situations. One of my co-workers is a Punjabi hindu whose parents moved to other parts of India and he was brought up there..speaks Punjabi poorly and very rarely. Other day when I pointed out somehting about the project and asked what if that happens what will we do? He very casually ina layback manner, relaxing his head on teh head rest goes...let us first go there...then we will see what to do....I laughed hard and told him..that...that is a typically Punjabi reaction to poor planning...oye oh vi dekh laaNge...or fikkar na karo dekhi jayegi jo hou-oo.:)
My test to check Punjabiness is....if he drinks give him couple of shots and see how he talks. phaTT pata lagg jayega Punjabi ay ke nai:) je koi apna Karachi da bhai hoyea pee ke shaiyree sunayega..je koi Kashmiri bhai hoyea roan lagg jayega...Punjabi banda pee ke..sabh toN pehlaN pilaan waale nu ikk waDDi saari gaal kaDDega.:)
Anyone who owns a buffalo .. One ‘Muraba Zameen’ .. Mega apatite … gets confused around 12:00 PM … have (or some ancestors) used open space to relive themselves… thinks Bhangra is unique (although every Bhangra song has the same beat!) … and has someone (it could be him or her) in the family with huge buttocks . .will qualify as Punjabi
Hey one more thing
These things are hard to explain
For some it seems strange... to swallow
The frontier of our minds
Is the last place we find
But maybe the first place we should go
[quote]
Originally posted by vivek:
** I think maybe about 2/3 rds or 3/4ths of the pakistani punjab speaks the main dialect of punjabi. the others speak seraiki and hinko. **
[/quote]
I beleive the area of geographical and historical Punjab would speak the most spoken dialect of Punjabai. I am not sure if seraiki is dialect or a seperate language. Some seraiki would say that their languge should be considered independant. But it was classified in the past as more of a dialect.
Hindko is an independant language. It has dialects within. It is classifed under the same larger group as punjabi, sindhi etc although kharoshti was GrecoAramaic induced.
Pashto is classifed with balochi, but they are not dialects and cant understand each other.
[This message has been edited by Sultan Toora (edited July 19, 2002).]
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[This message has been edited by Faatma Habeeb (edited July 20, 2002).]
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[This message has been edited by Faatma Habeeb (edited July 20, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Faatma Habeeb:
** ** EXCUSE ME MISTER VIVEK...WHERE DID THAT COME FROM? CAN I ASK WHO YOU ARE REFERRING TO HERE? ** **
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relax i wasn't talking about u. the name is spelled as i typed it. same writinng style is gymnasophyst or whatever. in fact i didnt even know u existed on this board.
My family is of the Awan tribe, which claims it came from Iran. I wouldn;t be surprised if I had Hindu ancestors though. Punjabis of Pakistan come from very different ancestory from what I gather, but became more and more uniform as time went by. The many Punjabi dialects reflect this diversity.
The only reaon the Sikhs are so Punjabi nationalist types, is becaue their religion is based in Punjab. Through their religious identity, they identify themselves with the land. This is probabaly why the Hindu Punjabis do not speak Punjabi outside of Punjab, because Punjab is not necesarilly a strong part of their religious identity.
Hey that makes 80% of indian and Pakistani population.
You could not be more removed from reality of your own country and people to think that only Punjabis relieve themseves outdoors and own buffalos etc.. that is what most of your country is about..but 2% educated graduated elite like yourself will never understand the masses of your own country and will continue to insult them, alienate them and do nothing for their betterment.
I was kind of mad at first reading your comments and then I saw no response from any so called Punjabis confronting your ethnic stereotyping and right out insulting…then I actually smiled. May be they desrve such treatment. Bravo to you. Continue please
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
tusi vi uchey, tuadi zaat vi uchi, tusi wich uch de rehnday.
asiN Kasuri, saadi zaat Kasuri, asiN wich Kasur de rehnday
[This message has been edited by ChannMahi (edited July 20, 2002).]