Just wanna know Who is Ali(a.s) according to you.
1)was he right
2)can he be called an Imam
3)what do you think about him
P.S I know I have touched a sensitive topic and I request you to answer without offending anybody.
Say, Pal - Go look it it up in the shia website:
www.al-islam.org
On the other hand - If you R looking for debate then, as an opening statement I suggest you answer the following questions I had OUTLINED for the sUNNAH enthusiasts in the thread (closed): THE NAME ALI(a.s)ON THE MOON ----- A MIRACLE!
ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS:
If Imamat is not acceptable to you then the alternative is Sunnah!
It’s Quran & Imamate;
or,
Quran & Sunnah!
Show me where it says:
Follow Quran & Sunnah!
You R quick to reject the other interpretation of Imamat as “the Rope” and “one of the 2 weighty things”, then please:
Show me where it says that believers should look at the Sunnah for:
(1)solutions and,
(2)meanings to the Quran for all ages & eternity!
Syedna Ali (R.A)was the most pious sahabi and fourth kaliph of Islam. We respect and love him.
Check this site for authentice information according to Quran and Hadith books.
He was a family member of prophet Mohammad(saw) and a his compainion. He was also 4th Calipha. We all respect him very much.
http://www.islamzine.com/
Watcher,
U see the best way to reform people like you is asking DIRECT questions like I did to Desert Fox here and the questions I have asked you in the thread: THE BEST GENERATION!
Dear Readers,
The following is what he[watcher] & warrior posted in the other thread:
1) "in this issue the shia are worse than the jews and christians."
2) "If you deny the verses that Allah revealed about the companions of prophet, you should be called daviant"
Tell me - Does this improve shia-sunni relations?
Faceup, sir there is no use talking to you about Islam. You just do not understand it.
Making up new things and calling them right, is NOT true Islam.
You have clearly denied the verses from quran about respecting Sahabah, and you have clearly denied the hadiths of Prophet about respecting his compainions.
I don't think you are a shia, or even a muslim. You are here just to creat mess and give false information. The information that you have no knowledge of or evidence of. Please stop it.
1)was he right
Hadees "Haq ali kay saath hay aaur ali haq kay saath"
2)can he be called an Imam
"Refer to dua-e-Ibrahim in quran majeed"
3)what do you think about him
" Bara zindagi ka safar
Rah-e-nijat chohtee hay
Bara ali ka zikar
Aaur hayat chohtee hay"
[quote]
Originally posted by faceup:
Show me where it says:
Follow Quran and Sunnah
Show me where it says that believers should look at the Sunnah for:
(1)solutions and,
(2)meanings to the Quran for all ages & eternity!
[/quote]
It clearly says in Quran to follow on the footsteps of Mohammad(PBUH). And for hypocrites and Liars like you It also mentions:
Those who reject Faith- Neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progency will awail them aught against Allah; they are themselves but fuel for fire [2:10]
[This message has been edited by Abdullah k (edited September 26, 2000).]
Abdullah
Is that it? You could come up with a few lines to explain why “Following Sunnah” has been made mandatory. You R kidding, Right?
YOUR QUOTE OF AYA 2:10
“Those who reject Faith- Neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progency will awail them aught against Allah; they are themselves but fuel for fire [2:10]”
Abdallah - R you sure what you quoted is from quran and not from your secret prophet - abdul wahab? I could find exactly that quote of yours!
Here’s what the three scholars Pickthall, Yusufali & Shakir say about aya 2:10:
[al-Baqarah 2:10] In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.
[al-Baqarah 2:10] In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
[al-Baqarah 2:10] There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they..
Abdullah - it’s not your fault! It the fault of your system !
Go & ask your alim: “Why do we follow Sunnah”?
Instead of answers - he will call you names and remind you of the heat of hell! But, he will not answer the question with reference from the quran!
So,that you R not completely disillushioned:
Majority of muslims R still lost when it comes to knowledge, talim & tawil of quran!
So, they chose the next best thing - they adopted the sunnah/hadiths to explain the meanings of the quran.
Hey, how can one go wrong in following the ‘ways’ of the prophet?
- The prophet never asked us to follow “his ways”.
- Prophet’s ways were compiled 200+ years after his passing and initially over 90% - I kid you not, over 90% of his hadiths/sunnah were fabrications.
- The prophet’s ways REFLECT 7th century. By following the ways of the 7th century, we freeze outselves to the 7th century.
- The quran is timeless & forever! What does this mean to most? It means that the 7th century is timeless & forever! Because the quran has been frozen in the likeness/similitude of the 7th century sunnah of the prophet(SAW).
Abdallah - I can quote you numerous ayas re: Religious Authority or Imam in Islam but for now, let me leave you with this 2 ayas:
[an-Nisa’ 4:59] O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger and those of you who are in authority; and if ye have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to Allah and the messenger if ye are (in truth) believers in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more seemly in the end.
Abdallah - pls explain for me what does this “and those of you who are in authority” means?
[bani Isra’il 17:71] One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.
Abdallh: Who will you be called with?
Ramesha,
Thank you for posting that hadeeth,"haq ali kay saath hay aur ali haq kay saath".I couldn't have said it better myself.
Now ali(r.a.) remained a faithful companion and friend of Abubakr(r.a.),Umar(r.a.),Usman(r.a.) throughout their periods of khilafah.And these personalities also always kept Ali(r.a.) in the highest regard and valued his opinion in all matters,even the most important ones.
Isn't it time that we all followed this example and stop making fools of ourselves over this shia/sunni and imam/non imam stuff??
P.S.can you tell me the ayah no. of dua of hazrat Ibrahim(A.S.) in the quran?
[This message has been edited by Ahmed (edited September 26, 2000).]
Thanks all for nothing other than Ramesha who is the only one I could get a decent answer from!
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/pagal.gif
I just wanted to know what you think about Hazrat Ali(a.s) not try to fill me on Ali(a.s). I wanted to see the difference of opinion between the various people. If any one can they are welcome to type.
Hey, faceup sir, why are you changing Quranic verses here?
Before doubting any verse, why don't you check it in authentic translation of Quran; instead of your own "mind-made" translation!
Stop deluding your self and other people on false assumptions and "mind-made-mythologies", if you are not a Muslim than come out. Why corrupt your self and others, is someone paying you to do this and to spread garbage?
[This message has been edited by The Watcher (edited September 26, 2000).]
Watcher,
Earlier, in another thread, you accused me of maligning the sahabas but had no proof to back it up. Don't know much about Islam other then the copy & paste variety but here you R - wanna debate Islam!
Now, you accuse me of changing the verse! Say, when you make accusation, the rule is to back up your claim and not call me names!
So, can we see proofs where I 've changed the verses? BTW - you do know how to look up the verses from quran, don't ya?
faceup:
Here are some answers. I have taken out the irrelevant portions of your post.
faceup: A good student of Quran, has to be careful, while studying Quran. For every verse in Quran, you need to find out the “Shaan-e-Nazool” (Reason & background) and the “Tafseer” (Explanation). Now, the shan-e-nazool is usually non-controversial, if you look up in any authentic book on the Life of Prophet. The shan-e-nazool is usually a fact. For example, where there is a warning in the Quran to umahat-ul-momoineen (mothers of the momineed or wives of the Prophet SAW) to be extra careful, it was issued based on a specific instance.
However, for Tafseer (Explanation), there can be a wide variation. I will never tell you to read a particular tafseer or not to read a particular tafseer, however the only recomendation that can be made is that a tafseer should only be read of an aalim who is truly authentic and recognized scholar. If you are a shia, you are free to read tafseer of any eminent aalim of fiqa-e-jafaria.
Based on the above discussion, it is clear that the translations posted by you are accurate and so was the one posted by Abdullah. There is not even any difference in the tafseer or explanation, as you had just posted the literal meaning of the ayat without a disclosure as to whom the ayat is addressing. This is a classic case, where without authentic information on shan-e-nazool and tafseer, a person will be perplexed as to the meaning of the ayat. We need to understand as to whom is this ayat referring to. As per the posting of Abdullah, this ayat is referring to the “insincere man”, or a man who thinks he can get the best of both worlds by compromising with good and evil (refer translation and commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali).
In such cases it is customary to put brackets around the part which is not the exact translation, rather is added to explain the meaning clearly. That was remiss.
However, if in your opinion the ayat refers to something else, then you are free to enlighten us backed by tafseer of your choice. Ideally, if you can refer to an online tafseer, I will also like to find out some additional info.
Caution: If someone tries to be an aalim himself or herself without referring to authentic studies and tries to decipher the meaning Quran on their own, they run the grave risk of misinterpretation. You need an extraordinary command over Arabic language, the grammer and rules of Arabic, the life and times of Prophet and deep interpretation of sharia and fiqah to be able to correctly understand the meaning. faceup, you might be one of those. I am not, so I usually refer to an authentic tafseer.
**
faceup: Unfortunately, I detect disrespest towards our Prophet SAW in your postings. I hope I am wrong. Lets get the facts straight. Sahih Bukhari, which is the most authentic collection of ahadith was indeed written 200 years after the visaal of Prophet SAW. All the ahadith collected there are put to the extreme test where every hadith had to be verified by another sahabi, and both the sahab’s rawaiat had to travel by authentic muslims sperately to the time of Imam Bukhari. For this reason a wide majority of muslims of all fiqahas agree that Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic collection of Hadith. So much so, that several ahadith which are also very authentic and are part of the other collections, included in Saha-e-Sataa, are not part of Bukhari, because these could not be proved by two sahaba and tracked back to them.
Quran calls us to establish prayer, salat. The method of prayers is not specified. These are obtained from the sunnah of the Prophet SAW. If you try to ignore the sunnah, not only will your aqeeda be incomplete, but you will be remiss in your responsibilities as a true muslim. You can never understand Islam, without looking up as to how our Prophet SAW, lived his life.
Islam is not just a religion. Islam is a “Deen”. It is a “Way of Life”.
If you restrict yourself thinking that Islam simply means praying at certain times in a day, fasting, performing hajj and similar mandatory tasks, then alas, you will miss out on the basic purpose of Islam, which is to structure our lives according to Quran and the ways of the Prophet. Our whole life has to be according to Islam, and not just our prayers. If you get this point in your heart, then the remaining confusions in your mind will disappear.
For the first ayat, first of all, I must thank you for pointing it out as I needed to quote it to a friend of mine on a different discussion, elsehwere. Now as to your question, the term “those of you who are in authority” refer to an imam. In true sense it refers to an islamic state, where every muslim must obey the Ameer-ul-momineen. The Ameer, can also be referred to as Imam. Again I am referrin to the translation and commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, as his translation was quoted by you, so I assume you agree to its authenticity.
There is a hadith (closest meaning) “And those of you, who die, without taking baiyat (promise on the hands) of a Khalifa, die the death of the days of jahaliyat” (Bukhari). This hadith refers to the fact that as an Ummah, mulims must have their leader or Imam whom the whole Ummah follows, and whose orders are considered part of sharia, in the light of the ayat quoted by you above. This is to ensure that the once an Ameer is there, there should not be dissent in the Ummah.
For the second ayat, you made the same mistake as was made by Abdullah in the beginning. I am referring to the translaion and commentary by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, to whom you have also quoted. The word “Imamihim” (17:71) means the “leader”. This is not the same as the word Imam used by us, muslims, strictly in our refernce. Notice that this ayat is referring to all human beings “kul Anas” and not to muslims alone. Therefore, by unanimous explanation, this means the Prophet to whom we follow. In some explanations, the term “Imamihim” also refers to their revelation, their book. A third is that the Imam is the record of deeds spoken of in the next clause. I prefer the first. By this explanation, I hope you are clear, that all muslims will rise with our Prophet SAW.
This ayat indeed re-enforces my original argument, that we must have love, respect and follow our Prophet SAW if we hope to be successful in the hereafter. Especially because of the enormous load of sins which we carry around with us.
If you dispute any of the points raised above, please feel to point them out
Neither the Quran, nor the Sunnah is restricted to any particular time in history. We have to learn from both on how to structure our lives and live according to the teachings. Both of them are our guide forever. Even to think of such a inappropriate thought will be grieveous mistake on the part of any muslim. Like it or not. These are the arguments of those without knowledge, better known as juhala (ignorant people).
Wlah u Alim Bilsawab..
…and Allah Knows Best.
Jazak Allah Khair
And while we are on the topic of Imam, let me clarify further, that having a guide (Imam) in religious matters is fine, even recommended, provided the Imam satisfies the conditions of a true momin and a true Islamic scholar. Hazrat Ali RA, Hazrat Hasan RA and Hazrat Hussain RA, all satisfy the criteria. They are true Imams. Even in modern times, it is difficult, but not impossible to find true momineen and scholars to whom we can refer to as guide or teacher.
I will like to know how do you, faceup or other shias, define an "Imam"?
What are the conditions a person has to meet to be considered an "Imam"?
Does any scholar be an "imam"?
When I talk about Khilafat, in modern times, I never refer to the khilafat which was present in early 20th century. Those leaders, Turkish and others were corrupted and ignorant (jahil) leaders who did not satisfy the true test of an Islamic leader. This single most acid test of an Islamic leader is that he must follow (Islamic) sharia in all aspects of his life. For true khalifas we must refer back to the times of Khilafat-e-Rashida and some other notable leaders, most famous of whom is Umar Bin Abdul Aziz.
Khilafat never travels on the basis lineage or inheritance alone. The most pious and the most able momin is to be the khalifa. For this reason, I believe that some of the most famous muslim dynasties were no more than kingdoms, and never qualify as the true followers of khilafat-e-Rashida or to the title Ameer-ul-Momineen.
Similarly the present rulers of Saudi Arabia or for that matter any other muslim land do not fulfil the conditions required of a Khalifa.
These are my personal views. Feel free to disagree.
...and Allah knows Best
[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited September 26, 2000).]
Pristine,
- Let me ask you the same question that Abdullah was responding to:
Based on what quranic evidence have you made the prophet’s sunnah into the meanings of the quran and basis for all shariah laws and, in the process frozen Islam in the 7th century for all eternity?
- Abdallah had responded by quoting aya 2:10 and I duly pointed out to him that the verse he is quoting is not aya 2:10. What is the correct aya?
I am not interested in background or Tafseer. We R talking quranic aya and the aya that he quoted is not correct. So, based on what do you state that Abdullah is also correct?
- You claim that the following response of mine is “disrespectful” of the prophet:
"Majority of muslims R still lost when it comes to knowledge, talim & tawil of quran!
So, they chose the next best thing - they adopted the sunnah/hadiths to explain the meanings of the quran.
Hey, how can one go wrong in following the ‘ways’ of the prophet? - The prophet never asked us to follow “his ways”.
- Prophet’s ways were compiled 200+ years after his passing and initially over 90% - I kid you not, over 90% of his hadiths/sunnah were fabrications.
- The prophet’s ways REFLECT 7th century. By following the ways of the 7th century, we freeze outselves to the 7th century.
- The quran is timeless & forever! What does this mean to most? It means that the 7th century is timeless & forever! Because the quran has been frozen in the likeness/similitude of the 7th century sunnah of the prophet(SAW)."
Could you explain what you find disrespectful.
- Pristine, a word of advise to you! Pls do not go around preaching your perceptions to others; when you do this, you automatically assume that you R correct and everyone else is Wrong!
Allow me to quote you:
“Quran calls us to establish prayer, salat. The method of prayers is not specified. These are obtained from the sunnah of the Prophet SAW. If you try to ignore the sunnah, not only will your aqeeda be incomplete, but you will be remiss in your responsibilities as a true muslim. You can never understand Islam, without looking up as to how our Prophet SAW, lived his life”
First – the salah is NOT from the Sunnah. The salah, fasting, haj, zakat is all from prophet Abraham. The pre-Islam people of Mecca used to pray the salah ‘minus’ the surah fateha which was added as part of Islamic salah. Maybe, you should do a little research before making a major statement.
Second, here is that preaching of yours: "ignore the sunnah, not only will your aqeeda be incomplete, but you will be remiss in your responsibilities as a true muslim”
Pristine, you have it wrong! Your statement should be:
“Ignore the Quran and your aqeeda is incomplete”.
The sunnah/hadiths are guides & references – not to be made into the meanings of quran and basis of the shariat.
I am impressed about your devotion to Bukhari & Co.’s sahihs and, your DESIRE that all must follow such an innovation! I will assume that you have read the sahihs of bukhari & co. There are major contradictions of the hadiths with the quran. These sahihs not only insult the prophet; it, rather, degrades Islam!
On the questions surrounding Imams & Imamate, we can discuss later after we have finished going thru the above. I would like to take leave with this appropriate quote of yours:
“And those of you, who die, without taking baiyat (promise on the hands) of a Imam/Khalifa, die the death of the days of jahaliyat” (Bukhari).
In the meanwhile, you can read up on the Shia Imam & Imammate at: www.Al-islam.org
[This message has been edited by faceup (edited September 26, 2000).]
Faceup, sir I did not accused you of nothing. You are just deliberately defaming me of something I did not do. When I asked you to show me the writing where I accused you, you could not.
You posted some hadith in other thread. I asked you to give me reference and evidence of where you got that hadith from, but you could not. Hey, if you read that hadith in so and so book, give us the name, but you could not.
I have been posting for 3 days only, and reading your posts on Islam really saddens me. I think, you are nothing but by-product of your own thinking. Anyway, its useless for person like me to even think of debating you. From now on you are on ignore, just like as if you don't matter, and yes, the lies that you have posted, do not matter.
*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*
A correction, Ayyah itself is numbered 3:10 in the Holy Quran. It must have been a typo or an unintentional mistake. My humble apology to all.
Faceup, I am busy at the moment, Inshallah will repsond to your inquiries.
Watcher,
When you have nothing to say then do not write!
Your claim to fame:
posted September 26, 2000 05:51 PM
Faceup, sir I did not accused you of nothing. You are just deliberately defaming me of something I did not do.
Watcher,
Check out your other posts and compare with the one above:
1) posted September 25, 2000 07:44 PM
Faceup, sir there is no use talking to you about Islam. You just do not understand it.
Making up new things and calling them right, is NOT true Islam.
2) posted September 26, 2000 11:45 AM
Hey, faceup sir, why are you changing Quranic verses here?
Before doubting any verse, why don't you check it in authentic translation of Quran; instead of your own "mind-made" translation!
Says it all, doesn't it!
Abdullah
Thank for correcting the aya number upon which, according to you, the whole Sunni Islam is based:
Here they are, folks; you be the judge:
003.010
YUSUFALI: Those who reject Faith,- neither their possessions nor their (numerous) progeny will avail them aught against Allah: They are themselves but fuel for the Fire.
PICKTHAL: (On that Day) neither the riches nor the progeny of those who disbelieve will aught avail them with Allah. They will be fuel for Fire.
SHAKIR: (As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah, and these it is who are the fuel of the fire.
Good luck!