who in this place has been given task from Allah to decide whose "family" was better?
will this discussion help you in getting "heaven" ??
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
Maybe Not. But at least it will help us in getting some peace on Earth
[quote]
Originally posted by babydoll:
**
and how would that be? if I start to accusing your family of what they did 25 years ago, is that justified? and on the basis of that if I say they’ll go to hell, they are cursed etc. how’d you feel? I’m sure I don’t have any right to do that… but just for the sake of argument think about it…
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif
We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?
[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited July 12, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
**Sheraz,
Dude what happend to you?
I never knew you to be like this.......
I don't like Aysha either but not to the point of insulting her. She is a woman(be it a wrongly guided one)
**
[/quote]
Brother Shah Jahan.. you might be moderate in your beliefs but most of your shia brethren live on cursing and swearing on the first three Caliphs and Hazrat Ayesha (Ra). So i urge you to stop this hatred because Islam is a religion of peace so don't make your blood pressure run high with such hate and enmity.
You got me all wrong. I meant go ahead and fight you all, debate to your heart content and then get over with it. I am not taking any sides.
Hopefuly at the end we can really have some Peace.
If companions of prophet (pbuh) didn't differenciate who was better among themselves and always agreed with each other so are we to decide who is better since we don't have any better measurement tool.
changes_like
don't war criminals go on trial? or do they roam around freely amoung us? what happened to hitler and pinochet? and what is happening with milosovic?
the point of this thread is, i should've stated in the outset
The reason that the shia's hold the 12 imams in such high regard is because of what they did for islam,
now looking at what they did for islam is only cuz of what they had been taught by their parents, i think i will have to state the chain of parents to clarify my point further.
The prophet(saw) taught fatima(as) and imam ali(as), they taught imam hasan(as) and imam husain(as),
imam husain(as) taught imam zain-ul-abideen(as),
Imam zain-ul-abideen(as) taught imam muhammad al-baqir(as),
Imam muhammad al-baqir(as) taught imam jafar sadiq(as),
Imam jafar sadiq(as) taught imam musa al-kazim(as),
Imam musa al-kazim(as) taught imam ali al-rida(as)
Imam ali al-rida(as) taught imam muhammad al-taqi(as)
imam muhammad al-taqi(as) taught imam ali al-naqi(as)
imam ali al-naqi(as) taught imam hasan al-askari(as)
imam hasan al-askari(as) taught muhammad al-mahdi(as)
we all await imam-e-zamana(as)...he will be sent on the day of judgement.
That is my point...12 imams(a)...out 12, 3 of them had been in the presence of the holy prophet(saw)...how could they have continued to be such strong followers of their Fathers-prophet(saw) religion if they weren't exceptional?
in the above, when i say taught, that is passed on, said, u get my drift rite?
"There as many ideas in the minds of men and women as there are stars in the sky, it is your job to hold on to one and make it come true"
Anonymous
Why did the Prophet PBUH only teach Hazrat Fatimah RA, and not his remainder 3 Daughters!
What happened to their families!
Islam is not a kingship or family estate.. Prophet Mhammad's teaching was for the whole mankind not for his select family members.. all mankind benefit from his message at the same level..thats the beauty of Islam..
Islam was completed with Hazrat Muhammed (PBUH). Anything that happened after is part of History.
Would Islam have been any different if Hazrat Ali had been the first Khaliph? I doubt it, since Islam is based on Quran and Sunnah and on that only.
Cooldude,
Islam By all mean is Compleated!!
But if this were truly the case why the Heck did qayamat not come with the Prophets Death? Islam compleate=world Compleate!!!
What would there be left for Humans if everything is truly compleated.that means there is still something that has to happen(or pass)before qayamat can come!!!
Again No one answers a simple Question Ahle-sunnah asked for Info about the Chaliphs family and he got none!!
Now I see alot of You guys sayin
"there is no rulership in Islam"
"Islam has nothing to do with family" ect.
If that is true
Why Did hazrat sulayman suceed his father(hazrat dawood who was the king)as Prophet and King?
Most of the prophets are related
Starting From hazrat Ibraheem later prophets were from his 2 sons!!!
You should all re-think your theory of family having little Importance compared to the Prophet!!
Bibi myraim was not a nabi but she is considerd to be of of the greatest Women of all time!!(plus she had alot of Importance by Giving a Miricle Birth!!)
When the Lion is Dead, Every Assthinks it can Kick it!!!!
But the question still remains?
Why did the Prophet PBUH only teach Hazrat Fatimah RA, and not his remainder 3 Daughters!
What happened to their families!
Ahl-e-Sunnah bro( u have got wrong name here)
Read and answer Sholay's question above
brejrinsssss
i thought i made my point clear when i stated that the reason 9 generations after the prophet(saw) the imams(as) were such strong muslims was because of their strong faith, cuz of what they were taught by the fathers(as)…plz refer to the list earlier posted…if they were strong muslims it’s only because of what imam ali(as) had taught them, and learned from the prophet(saw)
Questioning what the other three caliphs families did for islam is to prove that imam ali(as) was a better muslim than the first three caliphs
If today i become a drug lord
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smokin.gif
there will be questions about my upbringing cuz my parents only teach me what they know/believe.
just like the parents of hazrat ibrahim(as) that taught him to worship idols, not that he did cuz he was a prophet(as) and thus blessed.
“There as many ideas in the minds of men and women as there are stars in the sky, it is your job to hold on to one and make it come true”
Anonymous
Sholay What do you mean by teaching his other 2 Daughters?
Prophet had only 1 daughter by him!!
the others were Adopted(or as prophet had married widowed women these women brought their girls)
None were called so-and-so bint Mohammed only bibi aftema was called so.
And as someone said about adoption the foster father can't give his children his name!!(in Islam)
When the Lion is Dead, Every Assthinks it can Kick it!!!!
Shah Jahan
You have to be either illiterate or blind.
You actually had the audacity and stupidity to state that the Prophet PBUH had only one biological daughter and the rest were all adopted!
Not only were you content on slandering the Sahaabas, but you have now also slandered the Prophet PBUH.
As a matter of fact, do you know ANYTHING about Islam, or is it just what you hear on CNN.
For the record, here is the chronology of the children:
ZAINAB
The reports are unanimous that Zainab was his eldest daughter and was born after Qasim about ten years before his prophet-hood, when the Prophet was thirty years old. As was Khadijah's wish, the Prophet married Zainab to her first cousin, Abul Aas, an honest and truthful Makkan trader. Despite pressure from Makkah's anti-Islamic pagan rulers, he refused to divorce Zainab..
RUQAYYAH
Ruqayyah was the second daughter of the Prophet and was born three years after the birth of Zainab. She was married to Utbah ibn Abu Lahab before the prophethood. After the prophethood, Abu Lahab asked his son, Utbah and Utaibah who was married to the Prophet's third daughter UmmKalthum, to divorce their wives. Both divorced the daughters of the Prophet.
UMM KALTHUM
UmmKalthum was the third daughter of the Prophet. She was first married to Utaibah ibn Abu Lahab from Makkah but he divorced her on the advice of his father. When Ruqiah died in the year of the Battle of Badr she was married to Uthman. She died in her late teens in the 9th year of the Hijrah. The Prophet offered her funeral prayer. Her death at so young an age caused grief and distress to the Prophet. She had no children.
FATIMA
FATIMA, the Prophet's youngest daughter who inherited his good features, was the apple of his eye. Her devotion to her father and her faith in Islam were indisputable. A paragon of virtue, piety and kindness, she helped the Prophet in propagating Islam and in the service of the Islamic State. She sent food to the People of the Bench in the Prophet's Mosque. The Prophet married her to his dearest first cousin, Ali bin Abi Talib.
Fatimah was the youngest daughter of the Prophet PBUH.
All four daughters were born of Hazrat Khadijah RA, but you disagree. Therefore, your logic has revealed that all your 12 Imaams are actually Liars, as they have all acknowledged the children of Muhammad PBUH, but you state otherwise.
The question that arises, Where do you stand in light of this info?
I wonder how many educated Shi'ites are going to take your side now!
Take your time and answer.
u know shia people are actaully quite nice god fearing people ... I have almost all my friends who are shia (thats wat happens when u live in a city where there a lot of iranians)
anyways but they do tend to talk foolish at times like when they say that Hazart Ali was better then the other khalifhs!!
Only allah can judge that ... as I see it islam is a religion of equality ... no man is greater or better then another ... and I dont think saying that since Hazart Ali's family has the prophets blood they are all saints autmatically ... (not that I am saying they are bad!!) becuase other wise Abu Jahl had this blood too u know!
I am just saying that all the caliphs are the same ... no one is better then the other just because he is descendant or watever ... it is by deeds that some one can be better ...
To do in life is to appreciate it. To live life is to lose it. I dont know what I am saying so I will stop saying it.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
yara itni se baat samajh aa jae to itni behas kon kare… yahan kuch log khud he un great sahabas ka insaf karne lage hue hen.. this equality of humanity is the base on which Islam is standing and am proud of.. family blood is not a thing to beproud od or a fact of being any way supreme ..
Sholay, why do you find this difficult to understand? Do you want me to simplify it for you?
Here's your claim refuted by Sunni evidence:
Who was Umm Kulthum the wife of Umar?
Fact 1
- Sunni Historical evidence shows that the marriage of Umm Kulthum and Umar took place in the year 17 Hijri when Umm Kulthum was 5 or 4 years of age. This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri.
Sunni references :
- History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171
- al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539
- Historical evidences show that Hazrat Fatima ( May Allah bless her ) passed away 6 month after the demise of his father, and thus her date of death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Umm Kulthum were born in the year 9 Hijri.
Sunni reference: Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tardition 5.546
Shia reference: Anwarul Hussania, v3, p39
Then how is it possible for Umm Kulthum to be born after the death of
Hazrat Fatima (as) if the Sunnis claim that she was married to Omar in the
year 17 Hijri at an age of 4 or 5 years, that would put the date of birth
as 12 or 13 Hijri, which is long after the death of her mother?!
Fact 2
- Sunni historical evidence shows that Umm Kulthum (the wife of Umar) died before 50 Hijri, since Imam Hasan (as), Abdullah ibn Umar and Sa'ad bin Abi Waqs offered the funeral prayers. Also it is worthy to note that Imam Hasan (as) was martyred in the year 50 Hijri.
Sunni references:
- Al Istiab by Ibn Abdul Barr Volume 2 page 795
- Tareekhe Khamees vol II p 318
- History of al-Tabri vol 12 p 15
But then other references show that Hazrat Umm Kulthum ( Blessings on her,
the daughter of Imam Ali and Fatima Az Zahra ) were present in Kerballa
during the year 61 Hijri. Long after the incident of Kerballa Hazrat Zaineb
binte Ali ( blessings on her ) died, then it was that Hazrat Abdullah bin
Jafer Tayyar were married to Hazrat Umm Kulthum binte Ali ( blessings on
her ).
There is no contradiction to the fact that before Umm Kulthum binte Ali (
blessings on her ), Hazrat Zaineb ( blessings on her ) were married to
Abdullah bin Jafer ( blessings on him ). Also it is true that till the year
61 Hijri ( incident of Kerballa ) Hazrat Zaineb were alive, and that Umm
Kulthum binte Ali were married after the year 61 Hijri to Hazrat Abdullah
bin Jafer.
But where does the contradiction lie ? With respect to the first
references, the lady married to Omar by the name Umm Kulthum died in the
year before 50 Hijri, as Imam Hasan ( as ) had offered her funeral prayers.
This leaves us to believe that the Umm Kulthum married to Omar were infact
some other lady and NOT the daughter of Imam Ali (as).
Sunni references :
- Roza tul Ihbab Volume 3 page 585
- Al Bidayah wa al-Nihayah
- Tareekhe Khamees Volume 3 page 318
Fact 3
- The Sunni scholar Ibn Qutaybah in his book " al Maarif " mentioned that all the daughters of Imam Ali(as) were married to the sons of Aqeel and Abbas with a few exceptions, but he did NOT mention the claim that Umm Kulthum (May Allah bless her) were married to Omar. The exceptions were for Ummul Hasan binte Saeed and Fatima.
Sunni reference: al-Maarif, Ibn Qutaybah, p 80
For those who claim that such marriage happened; kindly answer the
following questions
- What was the age for Omar at the time of the marriage ?
- When Omar died what was the age of Umm Kulthum ?
- Could you briefly state the names of the wives of Omar?
- Could you assert to the truthfulness of the character of the
person who narrated this story ? ( I am talking about Zubair
bin Bakar ) ?
- Do you know how many children were born of Umm Kulthum
with the marriage to Omar ?
Who was this Umm Kulthum then ?
It would be appropriate to mention the other wives of Omar at this
juncture, not only during his pagan days but also after embracing Islam.
His first wife was Zainab sister of Uthman b. Mazun. His second wife
was Qariba, daughter of Ibn Umait ul Makzami, and sister of the Holy
Prophet's ( saw ) wife Umm Salma ( May Allah be pleased with her ).
She was divorced in 6 A.H after the conclusion of the Truce of
Hudaibiya. His third wife was Malaika, daughter of Jarul al Khuzai,
who was also called Umm Kulthum, also she did not embrace Islam and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
was divorced in 6 A.H.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
On arrival at Medinah he married Jamila, daughter of Asim b. Thabit
who was high placed Ansari and had fought at Badr. Jamila first name
was Asia which the Holy Prophet ( saw ) changed to Jamila on her
conversion to Islam. Omar divorcd her also for some unknown reason.
Omar also had other wives namely, Umm Hakim, daughter of al Harith b.
Hisham al Makhzumi, Fukhia Yamania and Atika, daughter of Zaid b. Amr
b. Nafil.
Sunni reference : Al Faruq - Volume II by Shibli Numani English Translation
Pages 340 --> 343 Chapter XIX ( His Family )
It is worthy to note that the author, Shibli Numani has easily ignored the
daughter of the first Caliph, Abu Bakr. This would explain that truly Umm
Kulthum who was married to Omar was not the daughter of Imam Ali, as the
correct historical references show, but the daughter of Abu Bakr.
It is also worthy to mention the footnotes that have been included when
Shibli Numani claims about the marriage of Umm Kulthum binte Ali ( May
Allah be well pleased with her ) in the above chapter. Here I quote it word
by word
... There was another Umm Kulthum who had been his wife but
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Historians make a clear distinction between the two ...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now as a student of History I would like to pose the following questions:
- Who is this other Umm Kulthum that has been mentioned
in the historical references ?
- Is she the same Umm Kulthum that was divorced ( Malaika
the third wife ) in 6 A.H ?
- We also know that there were ' two ' Umm Kulthum's as
Shibli Numani writes above, correct ?
- Or is she the same Umm Kulthum that is the daughter of
Abu Bakr ? If yes then why doesn't the author point out
so ?
Sholay you must be Mistaken!!
Look at history and you will see Khadija was also married before!!
The first 3 were her daughters from her Marrige before!!
Only fatema was Rasools Own daughter!!
And you just said rasool Taught Fatema not the other 2!
And now you tell me there are actually 4 daughters!!
Did one daughter go missing somtine?
When the Lion is Dead, Every Assthinks it can Kick it!!!!