where is the middle road?

Re: where is the middle road?

even in cases liek bank heists, if the robbers dont surrender and police has to go in and get them.

the ante is upped once you evade law enforcement, its upped again when you attack law enforcement.

is the punishment for armed robbery death? nope, but when armed robbers hole up in a bank and then attack law enforcement coming in to get them, at that point things change rapidly.

ghazi would nto have died had he decided not to fight.

Re: where is the middle road?

Ehsan! I assumed that Mod can lock the thread but they are answerable to you as a director.

Secondly it is not your ehsan that we are allowed to say what we want. This forum will not last without divergent views. Put likeminded people only and it will decay.

Re: where is the middle road?

Sorry, the issue here is not death of Ghazi, issue here is the attitude of government

Now it is obvious that like WMD's in Iraq there were no hostages inside so why did government sent troops inside and killed all of them. Why did they just not caught and locked the hifsa brigade on their way to any raid? There are a lot of unanswered questions.

Re: where is the middle road?

Ehsan and Zubari so far are the most middle of the road people on this board. In fact sometimes so "middle of the road" that it appears they are the forum version of Aaj and Geo.

There is no middle road in the face of anarchy. When some arsonist is burning down the building, we don't say oh bhai, just burn one room over there please.

A terrorist is an arsonist of much bigger variety.

Just like you can't plead with an arsonist to just burn one room down.
You cannot plead with a Mullu-terrorist to just do one kidnapping.

If an arsonist is not forcibly stopped, he will continue burning one room after the other until the whole house burns down.

If a terrorist is not killed, he will continue kidnapping and killing one person after the other until the whole society is totally uprooted.

Examples of internal-terrorism are Afghanistan and Somalia. Afghanis and Somalis failed miserably to enforce the writ of the law, and they failed for the last 30 years.

The result was terrible. Both these countries are now laying down with their legs up. Every tom dick and harry has free hand to do whatever they please.

Pakistan will (God forbid) suffer the same fate as that of Somalia or Afghanistan if our forces fail to establish the writ of the law. Fittay-moonh FATA is very quickly heading towards the fate of burned out cities like Kandahar, Kabul, Jalalabad, and Mogadeshu. If the FATANs don't stop, they will suffer like the people of Kabul, Kandahar, and Mogadeshu.

There is no middle road for terrorism. It is a cancer that will overtake you, kill you if left "in the middle of the road".

Re: where is the middle road?

question is why did ghazi not surrender, and why did his folks attack the soldiers when they entered.

again, if the govt had known that there were no hostages there but all willing goons, it could have done what others have suggested and just dropped a few bunker busters and gotten rid of them all, and not had to sacrifice lives of our valuable, highly trained soldiers.

Re: where is the middle road?

:omg:

So if someone is firing at the Police or Authorities. Then the police must not fire back and try to disarm him without force. :rotfl:

Really 700 people died? And where did you get that number?

Do you have any solid proof ?

As for hostages, what do you call thousands of people fleeing the mosque compound?

Don’t tell me you think they were all Ghazi clones dressed in Burkas?

So how else would they have diffused the situation?

They waited 6 months. They held countless negotiations. Ghazi wanted to die. If he didn’t he would have surrendered. Do you really think that these terrorists had a chance in that mosque against the Army?

Really? Then perhaps you are not watching TV right now.

But you are accusing the government of being butchers? If they were really butchers they could have claimed that there were no hostages in the compound and they are going to bomb it.

Then why didnt they do that?

If you claim that there were no hostages then why did the government send in ground forces instead of bombing the compound?

You open fire when you see a hostile with a weapon. If the threat is imminent you fire 2 bullets in the chest and 1 in the head and drop the bogey.

Do you want an entire lesson in battlefield tactics?

He was surrounded by his bodyguards. He was caught in a cross fire and died.

You have no proof of the contrary. You are just making stuff up to suit your purposes.

Really?

How may days has it been since the Lal Masjid episode ended. It takes time to start trials.

There were hostages. They rescued many. Many of them were being used as human shields. Infact 20 children came to the SSG when the SSG broke into the compound initially.

Here read this…

And in due time all that evidence will be provided. Just like when 200-300 Uzbek Terrorists got killed in the Pashtun Areas.

And who did we kill that Disagrees with the government?

If that was the case then every single journalist would be dead.

It took the government 6 months to act against the Mosque only when these idiots burned down the Ministry of Enviroment building.

And even then they negotiated for 7 days before acting.

Is this the best you got?

Re: where is the middle road?

24…congratulations pro mush’s!!!

Deadly attack on Pakistani troops

The number of soldiers killed in a suicide attack on a military convoy in north-western Pakistan has risen to 24, a Pakistan army spokesman has said.
Twenty-nine others were also hurt when the convoy was hit in the remote tribal region of North Waziristan.

Major General Waheed Arshad admitted the attack could be linked to the storming of the Red Mosque this week.

Troops have been sent close to the area amid fears militants may be planning a “holy war” in response to the siege.

Although no-one has claimed responsibility for Saturday’s bomb attack, Maj Gen Arshad acknowledged that it could be a response to the army raid on the Red Mosque in Islamabad on Wednesday.

“We can’t say for sure, but it could be a reaction to that,” he said.

The week-long siege left 102 people dead, including 11 soldiers and an as yet unknown number of extremists and their hostages.

The government’s operation against the radical Islamists sparked protests across Pakistan

In the north-western city of Peshawar on Friday more than 1,000 demonstrators vowed to avenge the death of the mosque’s deputy leader, Abdul Rashid Ghazi.

Maj Gen Waheed Arshad said the wounded from Saturday’s incident, some of whom are in a critical state, had been taken to hospital by helicopter after the attack near the village of Daznary, about 50km (30 miles) north of Miranshah.

A search is still under way for one missing vehicle after the convoy was struck by the attacker’s explosives-laden vehicle.

‘Guerrilla war’

North Waziristan, near the Afghanistan border, is often the scene of clashes between troops and tribesmen or foreign militants.

In a second attack on Saturday, two security officials were hurt in a blast near the town of Bannu in North-West Frontier Province.

Thousands of troops have been moved into the province as President Pervez Musharraf vows to pursue his campaign of rooting out extremists.

Although there is no new deployment to Waziristan, militants there say the government has broken peace agreements by setting up checkpoints.

Militant commander Abdullah Farhad told the Agence France-Presse news agency there could be “guerrilla war” if all checkpoints were not removed by Sunday.

Protests against the Red Mosque attack were held across the country on Friday.

Demonstrators in Peshawar were told it was a “genocide” in which “hundreds of innocent women and children died”.

In Islamabad, hundreds of demonstrators attended a rally organised by Pakistan’s main alliance of radical parties, the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal.

“This carnage will prove to be the last nail in the coffin of Musharraf’s dictatorial rule in Pakistan,” the group’s deputy leader Maulana Abdul Ghafoor Hydri told the gathering.

“Now there will be Red Mosques everywhere in Pakistan.”

Re: where is the middle road?

250 taliban/uzbek jihadis were killed some months ago in tribal areas. Who did you congratulate on that?

Re: where is the middle road?

excellent point

today is not a good day to be a pro-Mullah person on gupshup:D

Re: where is the middle road?

Uzbeks are renting homes from Shah Ji. When they die, Shah Ji doesn't waste time in congratulations. He immediately starts looking for the next Uzbek, the next terrorist to quickly rent his "back room".

Re: where is the middle road?

i need quotation for any numbers u post...and they should be from independent sources...not 'govt statements'!!!

Re: where is the middle road?

i am very generous in congratulating...BUT only for those who deserve it!!!

Re: where is the middle road?

are you happy that soldiers were killed by terrorists?
sure seems so.

Re: where is the middle road?

Is AFP good enough source for you or is it too kaffir?

http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Pakistan_tribal_assault_leaves_250__04042007.html

Re: where is the middle road?

haraam haraam

Re: where is the middle road?

Any way Fraudia. where is the middle road in your opinion? Kill all the Mullahs using the same violent tactics they used against civilized people or lets put them under trial in courts and after due process punish them.

Re: where is the middle road?

Is this not what the Govt demanded from Ghazi Brothers anyway, to give up arms, get arrested, and face trials in the courts? (and in case you didn't notice, this IS what's happening to Ghazi#1 right now). But they didn't want that and challenged that the Govt. didn't have any rights to arrest them. I am all for due process, but for due-process to be carried out, one must accept the authority of the government. Due process doesn't mean declaring oneself innocent and refuse arrest or trial.

Re: where is the middle road?

anyway read this article. This is an excellent summarization of the views of people who want to be on the middle road.

The link is http://www.dawn.com/2007/text/op.htm


The Lal Masjid phenomenon

By Dr Tariq Rahman

IT IS a fact that the Lal Masjid clerics violated the law on several counts: they encroached on CDA land; they allowed their students to occupy a library; they also allowed them to abduct Pakistani women, policemen and Chinese women. Then, when the Rangers were posted around the mosque, the students threatened and attacked them and burnt a building. They carried guns, some wore gas masks and they fired on security personnel. Is this not armed rebellion against the state?

If it is, which state would allow it? From what I know of Islamic political theory, the latter, too, does not allow armed rebellion against the state — irrespective of whether or not it is Islamic. There are many texts prohibiting disorder (fitna) and political philosophers make it clear that even a bad government is better than chaos and anarchy.

In Saudi Arabia, when militants occupied the Kaaba in 1979, they were attacked and wiped out. In short, it is part of the job of a state not to allow its writ to be challenged through armed struggle in this manner. If every group of vigilantes, with its own version of right and wrong, started kidnapping people and threatening armed struggle the state would descend into chaos.

What is permitted in democratic states is challenging the legitimacy of the rulers through elections, strikes, demonstrations, etc.

But letting anarchy loose upon the citizens is not permitted. That has to be ended; if possible through negotiations but if nothing works through force or the threat of force. So, anyone who blames General Musharraf’s government for challenging the militant clerics of Lal Masjid does not know what a dangerous course he or she is advocating.

This does not mean that everything the government did was right. It let the crisis simmer on for about six months. The stick-wielding girls of Jamia Hafsa were intoxicated by their unusual success as militants. They, as well as male students, dared to do more but were not stopped. They were spoiled into imagining they were heroes: the madressah was shown on TV; the maulanas were lionised; the girls were interviewed. This went to their heads and they started what they thought was a revolution.

All this could have been avoided if women police had been used and appropriate punishments handed out early into the crisis.

Also, one does not see how the intelligence agencies let so many arms and so much ammunition accumulate in the mosque. If there were hardened fighters, as evidence suggests there were, how did they get in? Either the agencies encouraged the maulanas to divert attention from the judicial crisis or they (the agencies) were really so ill-informed that they did not know what was happening right under their nose.

Moreover, if Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi had asked for safe passage at any time he should have been accommodated. True, this would have been considered a weakness by many and would have made the sacrifices of military personnel and students appear in vain but then, these things were worth risking.

What was not worth risking was the backlash of ordinary, middle-class Pakistanis accusing the government of brutality or, even worse, of having done all this to please the United States. So, both for humanitarian and political reasons, Maulana Abdul Rashid Ghazi should not have been allowed to become a martyr.

Yet another mistake was the ill-treatment meted out to the media which was prevented from going in, stopped from meeting people and even barred from seeing the Lal Masjid in its entirety the day after the operation was over.

Instead, the media should have been allowed to film and show everything, even if the scenes were shocking. Now that they have been denied this, media persons have adopted a cynical attitude towards the government which will eventually help the militants.

Helping the militants become stronger is neither in the interest of the government nor of the media nor, of course, of ordinary citizens. Indeed, it is not even in the interests of the militants themselves since history tells us that when one group of militants wins a war others challenge it and the country descends into civil war.

The media’s own role however, needs to be both praised and criticised. To begin with, the media was against the intransigent clerics. Reporters risked their lives and a cameraman was killed in covering the crisis. However, when Maulana Abdul Aziz was captured, the media turned irresponsible. He was ridiculed as he was shown in a burqa ad nauseam.

Later, he was even forced to appear in a PTV interview in that attire. That was really atrocious. One should never, not on any account, make fun of anybody or hurt a person deliberately. Disagreement with the maulana is one thing but not to respect his feelings quite another. This one unkind act might well have turned the tide against a peaceful settlement inside the Lal Masjid. Indeed, Maulana Abdul Aziz’s action should have been praised because fleeing is better than the kind of obstinacy which takes innocent lives.

Later, either because the media had been badly treated or because many media people themselves are susceptible to religious emotionality, many TV commentators started glorifying Abdul Rashid Ghazi. His last words were repeated several times and, on the whole, the government was blamed more than it should have been. Many of those who were blaming the government for inaction started blaming it for action. This was not helpful to anyone.

The media must understand that whereas its duty is to present all sides of a story, it also has to interpret events. If this interpretation goes against the basic principle that the state cannot be challenged by armed might, then it will mislead the public.

This is the beginning of a struggle against militant Islamic forces and the moderate sections of society. Whose side is the media on? This is a crucial question.

An even more vital question is: on whose side are the intelligence agencies? Elements in the armed forces? Political groups? Let us not forget that for a very long time Islamists have been used in fighting secular battles — America’s battle against the Soviets in Afghanistan and Pakistan’s battle against India for Kashmir — and the idiom of Islam has been used by the official media and in books, speeches, etc. to achieve the goals.

General Musharraf said in 2002 that he had reversed all this. But has it truly been reversed or are there elements somewhere that keep old policies in abeyance to be used some day? This is a question on which the fate of Pakistan hinges.

We must understand that the madressahs are not the only source of violence using the name of Islam. People educated in secular institutions — doctors, engineers and college lecturers — have been active in militant circles all over the world.The world is unjust and as long as the United States does not change its policies that are currently in favour of Israel and against the Palestinians and western powers are not sensitised to Muslim feelings and ideas, there will be anger.

This is the greatest threat to global peace but we can hardly influence foreign powers. What we can do is to change policies at home. Here too there is much anger. As Pakistan becomes more and more unjust and the gap between the rich and the poor gets larger, more desperate young men will emerge. They will use the idiom of religion to vent their frustrations.

If one looks at the images of the mosque one finds poor, rural people, generally from the margins of the country, mesmerised by the militant message of clerics. Were they expressing their anger and their sense of being marginalised and cheated by the system by fighting for the Ghazi brothers?

Our system is unjust and poor people respond to all those who appeal to them in the name of Islam or ethnicity or any such thing with blind fanaticism. This means that we must seriously pay attention to providing justice, material goods, services (such as hospitals, schools etc) and entertainment to the masses. Moreover, the elite should adhere to the law because one has the moral standing to challenge law-breakers only if one adheres to the spirit of the law oneself. I do not know if history will give us the time to reform ourselves but is there any harm in trying?

Re: where is the middle road?

Actually if you read between the lines, govt and ghazi had almost finalized negotiations and according to government the breaking point was presence of foreigners. But people say that Musharraf wanted killings at all cost to show to America that he is not playing double game.

Anyway that is my view point and not necessarily you agree to it. however what i feel that previously only mullahs were blood thirsty but now after lal mosque all so called liberals are also blood thirsty. you cannot differentiate between both.

Had govt made an agreement, Musharraf would have lost but Pakistan would have won. People had gone heavily against these Madrassahs but by blatant killing we the seculars and civilized people have lost moral high ground and result is in front of you.

Re: where is the middle road?

MFK: If Govt. of Pakistan really were as barbaric as you claim that they were in this incident, they could have saved the lives of Army jawaans and just dropped a few bad-ass bombs on Lal Masjid. But they didn't, and went through this ordeal of flushing out as many people out of the mosque as they could, a point you conveniently keep missing when discussing the 'Lal Masjid Massacre." Govt's job is not to make agreements and accords with terrorists, anarchists, thieves (example, not calling lal masjid goondas theives, they were worse) and looters. Because of the sensitivity of the situation, they tried to negotiate for six months while Children Library remained occupied by the Lal Masjid goons. That itself was bad precedent because we don't want the government to negotiate every time somebody breaks law and creates a law and order situation. But they still did it anyway, to keep people like you happy. But after six months of failed negotiations (which we shouldnt have had to begin with), someone had to say enough is enough, and take some steps to establish government's writ.

But yes, I am bloodthirsty for the bloodthirsty terrorists. If you can't differentiate between this and someone blowing himself up in a bus full of people, I don't have much to say to you.