that destruction of idols is haraam? Is unIslamic?
I see a lot of people that are saying that it was unIslamic. I want reference from Quran that says it is wrong to do so.
Plz, I don’t want to see “I think” or “tolerance that”. Only reference from Quran please.
Please provide me any kind of reference even from Hadits.
There were like so many of you that were so sure that it was unIslamic, and now what I see? Not a single reply…come on…please
please do not think that everyone can decipher the full meaning of the Quran. only Allah swa knows what He has written.
secondly, Quran is supplemented with the life and teachings of the Prophet pbuh. we need the Sunnah to fully implement Islam into our lives.
thirdly, if things are not found directly stated in the Quran or Sunnah, we turn towards the Qiyas and Ijmaa (correct me if im wrong) where Ijmaa refers to “general consesus” and Qiyas refers to something which i cant remember at this point (will edit and provide the info). it is thru this process that Sharia is established (islamic law).
say for example, we wish to find out if “whisky” is prohibited in Islam.
so u go to the Quran. if whisky is not explicitly written there, then u go to the Sunnah, then u go to the Ijmaa, and Qiyaas, to further see if something is written indirectly concerning that matter.
will post more after finding out
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
-mehndi
The Qur'an in Al-An`aam 6: 108 has directed the Muslims to refrain from using derogatory language for the revered personalities and concepts of others.
*"If it had been God's plan, they would not have taken false gods: but We made thee not one to watch over their doings, nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs." (6:107)
"Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides God, lest they out of spite revile God in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did." (6:108)*
I hope this helps.
They shoot partypoopers, don't they?
[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited March 13, 2001).]
Just for the sake of completeness of argument, can you also post the ayat(s), which negate idol-worship (and idols), so everyone can see the whole picture?
Also, pls include there the ayat(s) which relate to shirk, and whether its a forgivable or unforgivable sin, and for non-acceptance of Allah, and also what should the muslims do in face of such actions and such people? Both in war times and in peace.
Thanks.
[This message has been edited by Pristine (edited March 13, 2001).]
Idol worship and shirk were not part of the question. How does it complete the argument when thay are not part of the argument. Is it to create an argument?
Partypooper’s reference is highly compelling and authentic.
I am not doubting the references, ofcourse.
The argument by those who destroyed the idols (or statues) was that these are forbidden in Islam. I would like to know why?
Where does it say that we cannot increase the scope of a post, by asking more questions.... haan? If you have the answer, say so... if you don't, then read and wait for someone who has.
Argument is not necessarily a bad thing. A good argument increases your knowledge much more than reading just a uni-dimensional narration by one school of thought.
[quote]
Originally posted by Mr Partypooper:
*The Qur'an in *Al-An`aam 6: 108 has directed the Muslims to refrain from using derogatory language for the revered personalities and concepts of others.
*"If it had been God's plan, they would not have taken false gods: but We made thee not one to watch over their doings, nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs." (6:107)
"Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides God, lest they out of spite revile God in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did." (6:108)*
I hope this helps.
**
[/quote]
doesn't this explain the Quran
burning incident by hindus?
taliban have actually gone
against the word of Allah(Swt).
[quote]
Originally posted by ~Mickey~:
that destruction of idols is haraam? Is unIslamic?
[/quote]
they were statues not idols. theres
a difference.
[quote]
Originally posted by ~Mickey~:
**
Plz, I don’t want to see “I think” or “tolerance that”.
**
[/quote]
would it help if i said that islam
is a religion of rational and common
sense and not of blatant and blind
arrogance and ignorance
[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
*Just for the sake of completeness of argument, can you also post the ayat(s), which negate idol-worship (and idols), so everyone can see the whole picture?
*
[/quote]
For your satisfaction:
“And they set up (idols) as equal to God, to mislead (men) from the Path! Say: "Enjoy (your brief power)! But verily ye are making straightway for Hell!" ( Ibrahim 14:30)
“Such (is the Pilgrimage): whoever honours the sacred rites of God, for him it is good in the Sight of his Lord. Lawful to you (for food in Pilgrimage) are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exception): but shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false,-“ (Al-Hajj 22:30)
“For ye do worship idols besides God, and ye invent falsehood. The things that ye worship besides God have no power to give you sustenance: then seek ye sustenance from God, serve Him, and be grateful to Him: to Him will be your return.” (Al-Ankaboot 29:17)
“And he said: "For you, ye have taken (for worship) idols besides God, out of mutual love and regard between yourselves in this life; but on the Day of Judgment ye shall disown each other and curse each other: and your abode will be the Fire, and ye shall have none to help."” (Al-Ankaboot 29:25)
[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**
Also, pls include there the ayat(s) which relate to shirk, and whether its a forgivable or unforgivable sin, and for non-acceptance of Allah, and also what should the muslims do in face of such actions and such people? Both in war times and in peace.
**
[/quote]
"God does not forgive that partners be associated to Him, besides that He may forgive any thing for whom He pleases. Whoever associates partners to God is indeed guilty of a very grave sin." (Al-Nisaa 4: 48)
"God does not forgive that partners be associated to Him, besides that He may forgive any thing for whom He pleases. Whoever associates partners to God has indeed strayed far away [from the right path]." (Al-Nisaa 4: 116)
"And those who invoke no other god besides Allah [the one God] and do not kill except for a just cause and who do not commit fornication. Whoever commits these sins shall meet the evil fruits [of his deeds], his punishment shall be [consistently] increased on the Day of Resurrection and in disgrace he shall abide for ever -- except for those who repent and believe and do good deeds as for them God will change his sins to good deeds. And God is extremely forgiving, his mercy extends for ever." (Al-Furqaan 25: 68 – 71)
Al-Furqaan 25: 68 – 71 should be sufficient to provide an answer to your query regarding shirk. In these verses, in Surah Al-Furqaan, the Qur'an has stressed that any man who commits the three stated crimes (i.e. shirk, murder and fornication) shall face the consequences of these crimes in the shape of everlasting punishment in hellfire. The only exception will be those who sincerely repent and correct their behaviour before they die and are subsequently taken to the court of their Lord. This obviously implies that if any one commits any one or more of these crimes and then neither repents nor corrects his/her behaviour before his death, he shall then have to face the everlasting punishment of burning in hellfire. From another perspective, it also tells us that when a person sincerely repents about his past behaviour and corrects it, all crimes, however grave they may have been, can not only be written off but converted into good deeds. According to the Qur'an, the life of this world is a test for mankind. This test extends till one's death and till one's death, he/she has a chance of forgiveness. Sincere repentance and correction in the life of this world, clears one of the sin as if it never existed.
I really could not understand the latter part of your question. Are you referring to the desecration of famous religious personalities, including God? If so, I have tried to give the relevant verse (Al-An’aam 6:108) in the earlier part of this thread. Please clarify.
[quote]
Originally posted by Pristine:
**
Thanks.
**
[/quote]
You really are most welcome.
They shoot partypoopers, don't they?
[This message has been edited by Mr Partypooper (edited March 14, 2001).]
Thanks, I appreciate it.
I guess what I am now trying to get at is the religious justification. It is a bit complex, and I don't expect many people to completely understand what I am saying...
Ok, here it goes...
There is a frequent war-phrase, so to speak, "Allah ki zameen, per Allah ka Qanoon". Does it have any Islamic justification?
I think what I am trying to say, is, lets suppose there are a bunch of muslims, in a position of power, and there is this land, where there are idol-worshippers. What is the responsibility of the muslims? Do they send out an invitation to the mushrikeen to embrace Islam or pay jizya or prepare for war? Is this how it works?
Also, when muslims are in a position of power, what lattitude is allowed to non-muslims vis a vis activities blantantly related to shirk, i.e. idols etc? Do we, muslims, have any responsibility to enforce the laws of Allah on people who are peacefully living under muslim rule living by their own mushrik ways?
I am just wondering what are the guidelines issued by Quran or Sunnah for the above conceptual questions?
Mr Partypooper, I appreciate your effort and thanks, but that did not help.
I asked where does it says in Quran that destruction of idols is against Islam and is UnIslamic.
Taliban did not use any kind of devious language against Buddhism; they destroyed something that was not appreciated in their religion (Islam) in order to make a pure state, something that was not valued by anyone in their country. They showed respects to minority religions and allowed them to practice their faith.
What they destroyed might hold a value of dollar in cultural and historical means but in all respects there was no need for it in that country.
My question still remains, I ask anyone out there to provide me with reference from Quran that says it is/was UnIslamic.
Scratch So now they are not Idols but statues? Isn’t it against Islam to create statues in human figure or to admire them? (I might be wrong)
Anyway, if you and others admire work of art “statues”, then good for you, but you can not ask others to admire the same thing as you do. Common sense right?
arrogance and ignorance? What you said there is arrogance and ignorance also, don’t you think?
taliban have actually gone
against the word of Allah(Swt).
What do you have to say for the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions when they destroyed idols / statues?
Note: I am not comparing the Taliban with our beloved Prophet (pbuh) or his companions, nor am I judging or criticizing those actions. All I want to know is what makes that right and this wrong for you?
the only thing i can think of relating to this is when Prophet Ibrahim destroyed the smaller idols and left the bigger Idol. when the pple returned, he told them that the bigger idol destroyed the smaller ones.
see Surah "The Prophets"
"And by Allah, I have a plan for your idols - after ye go away and turn your backs"..
So he broke them to pieces, (all) but the biggest of them, that they might turn (and address themselves) to it.
They said, "Who has done this to our gods? He must indeed be some man of impiety!"
They said, "We heard a youth talk of them: He is called Abraham."
They said, "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may bear witness."
They said, "Art thou the one that did this with our gods, O Abraham?"
He said: "Nay, this was done by - this is their biggest one! ask them, if they can speak intelligently!"
So they turned to themselves and said, "Surely ye are the ones in the wrong!"
Then were they confounded with shame: (they said), "Thou knowest full well that these (idols) do not speak!"
(Abraham) said, "Do ye then worship, besides Allah, things that can neither be of any good to you nor do you harm?
"Fie upon you, and upon the things that ye worship besides Allah. Have ye no sense?"..
They said, "Burn him and protect your gods, If ye do (anything at all)!"
We said, "O Fire! be thou cool, and (a means of) safety for Abraham!"
Then they sought a stratagem against him: but We made them the ones that lost most!
But We delivered him and (his nephew) Lut (and directed them) to the land which We have blessed for the nations.
Prophet Ibrahim did it for a purpose.
-mehndi
[quote]
Originally posted by Scratch:
**
they were statues not idols. theres
a difference.
**
[/quote]
What is the difference, are you trying to say one was built for the sake of decoration.
If so, what is anyone's problem in interfering.
[quote]
Originally posted by kingshah:
** What is the difference, are you trying to say one was built for the sake of decoration.
If so, what is anyone's problem in interfering.
**
[/quote]
did the taliban see anyone kneeling
before them? since they say that
there are no buddhists there so probably
no one bowed to these; so they were not
being idolated, were they?
do i have to tell you the difference
between world/human heritage and
decoration too?
ya shaid afghanistan main islam khetrey
mein tha. aur taliban ney mujassomoon
ko tabah ker key usay bacha lia?
[quote]
Originally posted by ~Mickey~:
**that destruction of idols is haraam? Is unIslamic?
I see a lot of people that are saying that it was unIslamic. I want reference from Quran that says it is wrong to do so.
Plz, I don’t want to see “I think” or “tolerance that”. Only reference from Quran please.
Please provide me any kind of reference even from Hadits. **
[/quote]
Refresh! So anyone out there care to explain? Care to give me reference from Hadits or Quran?
If not then I will come to the conclusion that all you (you know who you are!) that criticized Taliban for this act are HYPOCRITES!!!
Prove me wrong. Please! Please!
My question still remains, I ask anyone out there to provide me with reference from Quran that says it is/was UnIslamic.
I think this is a misleading question, and the answer to it will not carry the true meaning that we should look for.
True, no where in the Quran is it mentioned that breaking statues is unislamic. But then again, neither does the Quran say that usurping ones right is islamic.
If the statues were being used by muslims, or were placed inside a masjid, that would have warranted a removal or demolition. In the absence of either of these factors, the islamic value of this demolition is nullified.
The only situation that would have warranted a demolition, according to Qurani and Sunnah traditions would be if the statues were in anyway hindering/poisoning/interfering with the worship of Muslims towards Allah SWT. And its clear that wasnt the case.
Non-muslim subjects have the same rights under muslim governments as do muslim subjects. The exception is that they dont pay zakat...they pay jazya, which is converted to zakat if they convert to Islam. But if they dont, they are to have the freedom to practice their religion, as is clear from Prophets SAW life. Prophet SAW had more infidels as his subjects that the taleban do....and the Prophet SAW never made such overtures towards them which would give even the slightest hint of a forceful imposition of Islam. The law was defined clearly. They would be given the message of Islam. If they accepted willingly, well and good. If not, they would have to pay jizya, in the absence of which, they would be subject to the same punishment as would be a muslim who refuses to pay zakat.
[quote]
Originally posted by Scratch:
** did the taliban see anyone kneeling
before them? since they say that
there are no buddhists there so probably
no one bowed to these; so they were not
being idolated, were they?
do i have to tell you the difference
between world/human heritage and
decoration too?
ya shaid afghanistan main islam khetrey
mein tha. aur taliban ney mujassomoon
ko tabah ker key usay bacha lia?
**
[/quote]
read what u wrote scratch. and then read Pristine's cnn report in the "smile" thread in image gallery.
statues or idols. they are both 3-d objects used for worship. even a picture is worshipeped (dont say its not cuz i have a roomate who does worship one of her gods in pic form).
so.. if statutes or idols are in an islamic country where there are no worshippers... what purpose do they serve?
as u will read from Pristine's post... the hindu idols were spared since they still had worshippers.
so i guess the Quran burning was a unjustified act. (in their terms of justification)..
-mehndi
[quote]
Originally posted by Eastern Analog:
I think this is a misleading question, and the answer to it will not carry the true meaning that we should look for.
Like I said, I don’t want “I thinks”. Prove to me how is it a misleading question?
True, no where in the Quran is it mentioned that breaking statues is unislamic.
So you agree that it is hypocritical to say that it was unIslamic?
[/quote]
[quote]
Originally posted by ~Mickey~:
True, no where in the Quran is it mentioned that breaking statues is unislamic.
So you agree that it is hypocritical to say that it was unIslamic?
[/quote]
you can't think like that. i'm sure quran teaches religious tolerance, and as an extension of that, you tolerate what they worship.