WHEN ISLAMIC LAWS COLLIDE WITH PROGRESS !

WHEN ISLAMIC LAWS COLLIDE WITH PROGRESS!

INTRODUCTION: Islamic laws or Sharia have always been repressive and unprotecting of the weakest in societies - women and minorities. In Sharia – both women and minorities occupy subservient status that makes them vulnerable to social injustices and exploitations. Islamic theologians are quick to defend the Shariat to be in keeping with Islamic traditions and will always argue that women have ‘protected’ status and minorities are ‘free’ in their persuits, when in fact, Shariat contravenes the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The Islamic charter for human rights is a carefully crafted document, it is very carefully worded, often citing the implementation of human rights, in light of the Islamic Shariah laws. Most Islamic countries have opted out of signing Universal declarations of human rights as they have had concerns to issues relating to gender issues or Women rights and rights of their non-muslim minorities.

CASE STUDIES: In Egypt a controversial law concerning marriage and divorce was enacted on Jan 27 ’00 to provide hope for tens of thousands of Egyptian women trapped in abused marriages. Two days after the law’s passage, Mossad Gabr became the first woman to sue for divorce under a section that permits a woman to leave her spouse even if he objects.

The reform has benefited Mossad Gabr because it enshrines an old Islamic legal concept called ‘khula’, which means that, for the first time, a woman in Egypt is able to divorce her husband on her own initiative if she is willing to return her dowry and free her spouse from financial obligations. However, she will still be entitled to support payments for their three children.

The section is one of several small changes meant to partially redress male domination in the legal system, in particular as it deals with divorce and other family-law issues. The amended law, nine years in the making, sparked an unusually lively and widespread debate inside and outside parliament, in part because it touched so many sensitive social issues. Religious traditionalists and liberals weighed in on the reforms, which a majority of Egyptians agreed should be in keeping with Sharia.

Similarly, the Moroccan government’s plan to assist women caught in unhappy marriages, by enacting more rights plan immediately ran into trouble as hundreds of thousands of Islamists, many of them veiled women, took to the streets on Sunday to protest against the government’s plans. The plan would ban polygamy, raise the legal age for marriage from 14 to 18 and allow women half their husbands’ wealth in case of divorce or death. It would also put the right to divorce in the hands of a judge rather than the husband.

Muslim theologians have fiercely denounced the plan, saying it would discourage men from marriage and incite ``prostitution and debauchery’’ and would be against Islamic law. They contend that Morocco is a Muslim country and Islam must remain the ultimate reference on all issues.

SECULARISM OR FUNDAMENTALISM: Clearly, the solutions suggested above impinge on the Islamic Sharia and powers enjoyed by the male-dominated societies. The Sharia, where implemented in the Muslim world today, serves the purpose of legitimating and encouraging the maintenance of ruling powers. It has become a political instrument, used by the elite to maintain power and effectively dis-empower opponents or opposition.

Finally, we can let history be our guide and learn that usurpers of powers, be they civilians or religious, are averse to changes that could jeopardize the powers & previleges they have bestowed upon themselves. Religion is but a pawn in the preservation of that status quo.

In the coming days, I shall atempt (Insha’Allah) to highlight more situations, through case studies, to press for revisions of the Islamic laws or Shariat to bring them in concert with changing times.

CASE STUDIES (cont..): ISLAMABAD, March 15: Human rights commission in Pakistan slammed the country’s rights record, particularly its treatment of women, in an annual report issued today, barely a week before a visit by U.S. President Bill Clinton.

The report, which also highlighted a clampdown on freedom of speech and child abuse, said more than 1,000 women were murdered last year in so-called “honor killings”, where women and girls are killed with impunity on rumors of impropriety. And more than one-half of women lived on or below the poverty line, as opposed to one-third of men, it added. “The most frequent killers (of women) by far were brothers, followed by husbands,” the report said.

It said that 1999 “was marked by reports of increased violence against women, threats of abridgement of their legal rights in family matters and lack of progress in their political and economic rights”. “Sections of society continued to regard any expression of independence by a woman as an infamy and the only way to restore the family honor was to promptly put an end to the life of the transgressor,” it said.

The report said the problem of child labor – with an estimated 15 million children working – remained undented. “Child abuse was one of the most unacknowledged of crimes … It existed on a commercial basis as well as socially. The majority of the children abused were 10 years of age or less – boys on average younger than girls”, the report said.

For full report pls visit: http://www.dawn.com/2000/03/15/latest3.htm

logical:

You have raised and/or put forward some very thought provoking points and issues. However, it appears to me that apple and oranges got mixed here. In conclusion you seems to be prejudice. Your reference to bring the history to solve problems appears to be inappropriate. Since history cannot take precedent over Quran and Sunnah.

Another thing we must keep in mind that the cultural behavior and cultural traditions have nothing to do with Islam, unless they are modified according to Islam. In most cases if they contrast with Islamic teachings, it is a form of Kufr. Most Muslim countries are falling for western pressure, since all illegal governments in predominantly Muslim countries are puppet and are an accessory of oppress Muslims in their respective jurisdictions. **I would love to see some facts where Islamic laws were in effect and Muslims did not get the justice.

Please read the following verses in Noble Quran, which talks about * marriage . I would also recommend you to read about Sunnah and read Ahadeeth about marriage, women’s right in Islam. Irrefragable and I have posted many Ahadeeth on Religion forum on many topics. After that I would like to learn where and how Islam failed to address the problem and/or issue. *

Marriage, 25:54
· adultery, 17:32
· evidence required (four witnesses), 24:4
· false accusers punishment, 24:4, 24:19, 24:23
· forbidden, 17:32, 25:68
· if there aren't four witnesses, 24:6-9
· marriage after, 24:3
· punishment for, 24:2
· appoint arbiter from among you when fearing a breach, 4:35
· complaints, 58:1
· don't hold wives against their will, 4:19
· dowry, 4:4, 4:19-21, 4:24, 4:25, 5:5, 60:10, 60:11
· other mutually agreed arrangements, 4:24
· woman may return it, 4:4
· forbidden
· to certain kin, 4:22-24
· to non-believers, 2:221, 5:5, 60:10
· fornication forbidden, 4:24, 4:25, 4:27, 5:5
· if unable, 24:33
· if woman fears mistreatment from her husband, 4:128
· love and tenderness, 30:21
· polygamy, 4:3
· restrictions about, 4:3
· warning against, 4:129
· recline with spouses in Paradise, 36:56, 40:8, 43:70
· spouses are raiment for each other, 2:187
· to adopted son's ex-wife is permitted, 33:37
· to orphans, 4:3
· to single woman only, 4:24
· to slave
· and among slaves, 24:32
· woman if need arises, 4:3, 4:25
· better if men don't marry, 4:25
· even if she's married before being captured, 4:24
· punishment only half of free women's if immoral, 4:25
· to unmarried only, 24:32

*** Think on this>>>these verses in Noble Quran (on dowry), 4:4, 4:19-21, 4:24, 4:25, 5:5, 60:10, 60:11 talks and commands about DOWRY OR JEHAIZ..But in India and Pakistan practice is to get the dowry/jehaiz from girls' family. Under islamic laws it should be other way around. Many girls can't get a good husband or a husband at all if their parents can't efford dowry/jehaiz.*** Care to explain this true case study?

Regards :)


Bubble Buster
"The true EVIL lies in IGNORANCE, not in suspicion."

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited March 30, 2000).]

Here we go again.

[This message has been edited by Irrefragable (edited March 30, 2000).]

logical:

Where is your proof that Islamic laws have prevented the progress or are preventing the progress? You started this topic without giving a single proof or mention/stating/producing a single facts to support your allegations?

ARE WE SUPPOSE TO BOW TO YOUR AUTHORITY?

Where is your proof of your rhetoric? What you are tried unsuccefully is that Islaam and Noble Quran are imperfect? By the way what is your faith. So far all I have seen are mostly disbelievers on GupShup.


Irrefragable
Islaam Is The *ONLY Solution:)*****And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers]. Noble Quran 3:85*

It seems that after Clinton's visit, Pakistanis have given up on Kashmir and are concentrating on religions.

[quote]
Originally posted by ZZ:
It seems that after Clinton's visit, Pakistanis have given up on Kashmir and are concentrating on religions.
[/quote]

It seems that you have a serious hemorrhoid in your ass, which is itching and swelling all the time. You desperately need hemorrhoidectomy, but being a cheap shit Hindu, you don't want to spend any money on your ass. Try using an ice pack for temporary relief.


Bubble Buster
"The true EVIL lies in IGNORANCE, not in suspicion."

logical bhai you are not verry logical. why you they are wasting so much time with the aurat right? I will tell you aurat rights in 11 word:do what shareef admi say and dont abuse shareef pakistani admi.she dont needs anything more. if you want you email me and i tell you what happen when aurat think she can have more.


Pakistan Hero
your Hero
http://pak_for_life.tripod.com/

Sharia laws have their origins in the Quran & sunnah. Islam, is a way of like and Sharia shows the way to the followers.

Sharia tend to be different in different societies. Foe example - Sharia is at its harshest in Saudi Arabia & Afghanistan. It is moderate in Malaysia and, in Pakistan - Sharia is a hodge podge of Islamic laws.

Sharia decides on all aspects of muslims’ life - from birth to death in accordance to God’s Quran and the Prophet’s Sunnah!

When the West decries human rights violations committed by Muslims against females and minorities, it is immediately rejected as an anti-Islam conspiracy. Islamic scholars openly defend their way of life according to Quran & Sunnah!

The question is: Is Sharia responsible for Islam’s excess? The Quran clearly states that the position of females and non-muslims are inferior and this is reflected in Sharia. Why is this so hard to comprehend!

CASE STUDY:Muslims threaten jihad in Indonesia.

Thousands of Muslims have held a rally in the Indonesian capital, Jakarta, calling for a jihad, or holy war, in the Moluccan Islands - the scene of prolonged sectarian violence.

Around 5,000 Muslims, some armed with swords and daggers and dressed in white robes, gathered at a sports stadium to mark the Islamic New Year.

Radical leaders told the crowd that 10,000 youths were ready to fight a holy war against Christians in the Moluccas, in the east of the country, and that they hoped to go before the end of April.

Ayip Safruddin, head of the Communication Forum for Muslims, said that if the government stopped his forces from entering the Moluccas, they would wage war on the densely populated island of Java instead.

“It’s up to them to choose” he said.

For full report, pls visit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_703000/703749.stm

logical:

The trouble is like most of the posters of GupShup you are alien to debate rules and manners. I also believe that you purposely avoid/ignore posts that questions your rhetoric or refute it. Your only objective is to spit venom against Islaam, but your profound ignorance of Quran and Islam is amazing. To cover your ignorance you use lies and fancy words like case study. Let us see what you got this time to spread hate and to please your spiritual leader Hitler. You did not answer to my posts. You did not tell me your faith. Why are you so ashamed of your faith? What gives you right being ignorant criticize a religion you have no clue about?

”Sharia laws have their origins in the Quran & sunnah. Islam, is a way of like and Sharia shows the way to the followers. “

**BB: So far you are right. **

”Sharia tend to be different in different societies. Foe example - Sharia is at its harshest in Saudi Arabia & Afghanistan. It is moderate in Malaysia and, in Pakistan - Sharia is a hodge podge of Islamic laws.”

**BB: Here either you are lying or are totally ignorant. Because Sharia is same. Sharia is NOT harsh. It is your prejudice without supporting facts you are judging things. Are we supposed to bow to your authority? Sharia exists where laws are based on Islamic Sharia. In Pakistan, Afghanistan and Malaysia it is not enforced to its entirety. That is the different which you failed to realize. **

”Sharia decides on all aspects of muslims’ life - from birth to death in accordance to God’s Quran and the Prophet’s Sunnah! “

**BB: You got problem with that? **

”When the West decries human rights violations committed by Muslims against females and minorities, it is immediately rejected as an anti-Islam conspiracy. Islamic scholars openly defend their way of life according to Quran & Sunnah!’

**BB: Where is your proof missionary moron? **

”The question is: Is Sharia responsible for Islam’s excess? The Quran clearly states that the position of females and non-muslims are inferior and this is reflected in Sharia. Why is this so hard to comprehend! “

**BB: Where Quran states that? Can you show me the proof? Give me a single verse from Quran to prove your claim? You are a damn LIAR. **

*” CASE STUDY:Muslims threaten jihad in Indonesia.
Thousands of Muslims have held a rally in the Indonesian capital, Jakarta, calling for a jihad, or holy war, in the Moluccan Islands - the scene of prolonged sectarian violence.

Around 5,000 Muslims, some armed with swords and daggers and dressed in white robes, gathered at a sports stadium to mark the Islamic New Year. “*

**BB: What is wrong with that? Jihad is a part of Muslim faith. Islam allows Muslims to defend themselves like Christianity and Judaism. So how come it is fair for two and foul for Islam/Muslims? **

”Radical leaders told the crowd that 10,000 youths were ready to fight a holy war against Christians in the Moluccas, in the east of the country, and that they hoped to go before the end of April.”

**BB: Who is the judge? Who is making the rules? Since you disapprove Islam so you use stereotype, you use bias, you use prejudice, you label, and you call name? What you suggest O wise one Muslims should do? Just lie down and let hate mongers like you slaughter them? **

”Ayip Safruddin, head of the Communication Forum for Muslims, said that if the government stopped his forces from entering the Moluccas, they would wage war on the densely populated island of Java instead.
“It’s up to them to choose” he said. “

**BB: Did you ever think about Militia in USA? What they do and say? What their web sites say? Why it is OK for them and wrong for Muslims? Beside that why you are not telling us the complete story? You have posted issues out of context making them pretext to fit your agenda? Care to debate with me on issues, about which you just only bark illogically. No post and run.


Bubble Buster
“You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!”

[This message has been edited by Bubble Buster (edited April 07, 2000).]

Dear Kafir:

There is something called knowledge and truth. Before you spread your brain farts like a SKUNK on this forum, why don't you try to reason? All your posts proves nothing except making you a case study of pure stupidity.


Ghazi
Facts Are The Authority!

[This message has been edited by Roman (edited April 07, 2000).]

NON-MUSLIMS AND SHARIA:

When Islam captures state power in each country it will enforce Shariah in business and finance; it will ban drinking and gambling; non-Muslim women will not be allowed to display their beauty as in the days of Jahiliyya (ignorance); the cinema, television and the press will be censored; non-Muslims will not be permitted to own weapons; certain organizations will have to be banned for the sake of the general welfare; non-Muslims will be replaced as expeditiously as possible in the public service and all instrumentalities.

"The vile and ignorant dhimmis (non-Muslims in an Islamic country) must be humiliated, belittled and rendered abominable and able to be distinguished by their appearance." For example, "different colored shoes, one white the other black"; for males badges such as an "ape for a Jew and a pig for a Christian: for women yellow veils."

The distinctive dress shows the Muslim that the dhimmi is to be treated as an inferior - not to stand up for her or shake his hand, not to give them Muslim charity.

He(Muslim)is to expect respect and deference from the dhimmi who shall not join a group of Muslims or raise his voice in their presence.

The non-Muslim is to stand aside if the pathway is narrow. It is haram (unlawful) for him to slaughter animals; reserved for him is the cleaning of lavatories and sewers, and carrying away rubbish and refuse. His house should be painted a dull color and be no larger than that of a Muslim neighbor.

Logical:

1) Please address the questions that others have raised here. Do not just post posts and not pay attention to the readers' comments.

2) There is NOT one country in the world today that is based on Islam. So as Muslims, we do NOT accept these countries (saudi arabia, egypt, pakistan, etc etc) as Islamic State. They are NOT based on Islam. The regimes ( who are puppets of the West) are in place to distort Islam and to oppress Muslim and to export the resources of its land to the West. Thus causing poverty and illiteracy in those countries. So West is responsible for the poverty in the world.

3) West is doing its utmost to distort Islam in as many ways as possible. To that objective, they have organizations who are trying very hard to get muslims away from the Ummah overseas and get them more invovled in the western system. One way of doing that is by studying today's condition of the 'Islamic" countries and then comparing them with the west. By doing this, they do a very good job of distorting Islam. Thus, confusing some Muslims.
Some Muslims have gone so astray that they say that they want to revise Islam so it can be compatible with today's times.
These pple who say that are total idiots who do NOT understand Islam nor do they have the correct Islamic aqeeda.

The fact of the matter is that some Muslims are OBSESSED with West and they try desperately to get other muslims to have the same obsession. Little do they know that they are sell outs who will never win the respect of the Muslims.

In the end, I urge you to study Islam from its sources and NOT take examples from today's countries that have Muslims in it.

I can very well also tear the Western civilization into pieces here. But I'll save that for later. If you wana talk more about this, call me 248 395 1500 and I"ll show you how the Western civilization is total jahaalat (pre-Islamic era).

Mostansar

Baleya,

I am not sure which question of theirs that you wish me to respond to when all my statements are met with " you got problem with that" or "liar" and my favourite "Kafir". How can I respond when all I get are insane remarks.

You may see the same pattern in any of their threads - their replies are nothing more than abuses of the others.

You state:
"There is NOT one country in the world today that is based on Islam."

Baleya - Islamic state or not, they are all abusers of human rights in the biggest way possible.

Moreover, I disagree with you in your suggestion that Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan are not based on Sharia. What do you expect to see different under "your assumed true Islamic State?" Better treatments for females & minorities! I do not think so.

You state:
"West is doing its utmost to distort Islam in as many ways as possible."

Baleya - If that is the case, may I ask why do you live in the West? Do you not know there is a Fatwa against residing in the land of Kuffars!

You state:
"Some Muslims have gone so astray that they say that they want to revise Islam so it can be compatible with today's times.
These pple who say that are total idiots who do NOT understand Islam nor do they have the correct Islamic aqeeda."

Baleya - Islam has to change with times. It cannot stay in the dark ages. Islam, today is very fanatical & radical with each sect calling the other "Kafir" and willing and does kill the other in the name of God.

You state:
"In the end, I urge you to study Islam from its sources and NOT take examples from today's countries that have Muslims in it."

Baleya - our Prophet said that to gain knowledge one should go even to China. So, nothing wrong in seeking & acquiring knowledge from others.

I have studied followers of Islam long & hard and have serious concerns.

Illogical Punk, what understanding do you have about Quran and it's teaching. Your comment is based upon illitracy about Islam ,and hatred.

[This message has been edited by outlaw (edited April 07, 2000).]

Baleya:

illogical is dumb as a mule. He has no clue anout Quran and Islam. When we called some morons on this forum Kafir, we stood behind our words and proved from Quran. He has no clue about what is Kufr? He has no clue that beauty of Islaam is that a believer can conclude in the light of Quran what is wrong and what is right? In Islaam a believer don't need a stupid Pope.


Bubble Buster
"You mess with the BEST
You LOSE like the REST!"

Baleya,

Case closed! How does one respond to their curses and swearings!

Guys - go drink from your lotta!

AsalamuAlaikum,

I am not sure which question of theirs that you wish me to respond to when all my statements are met with " you got problem with that" or "liar" and my favourite "Kafir". How can I respond when all I get are insane remarks.

Guys, please do not abuse anyone. That is not what Islam teaches us. Remeber that the Prophet (saaw) was stoned in Makkah and he still respected them in the hopes that they might become Muslims one day. So please respect everyone, regardless of their religion.

You may see the same pattern in any of their threads - their replies are nothing more than abuses of the others.

See my above comment.

You state:
"There is NOT one country in the world today that is based on Islam."

Baleya - Islamic state or not, they are all abusers of human rights in the biggest way possible.

Logical:
Again, who defines 'human rights'?
What you may call human rights may not live up to my definition of human rights. And vise versa. But all done and said, West is a abuser of human rights according to my definion of human rights. And you think muslim countries are abusers of human rights according to your definition. I DO NOT support any regime in any muslim country. Even though they favor lot of rules/laws that are against human rights (according to your definion of human rights), but I do not want them to change their laws/rules to accommodate the West's definiton of human rights. We, the Muslims, have to work collectively to change the current state of the Muslim countries into establishing Islam in totality. Only then will we see true justice and true social equality. Otherwise, there will never be harmony. In the last 200-250 years, more humans have been killed in some sort of war than the entire history of mankind. Please go to any college's main library and research this, and you'll see for yourself. Again, I do not support any regime in the Muslim, but I also do not support the definiton of human rights that you use.

Moreover, I disagree with you in your suggestion that Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan are not based on Sharia. What do you expect to see different under "your assumed true Islamic State?" Better treatments for females & minorities! I do not think so.

Logical:
Again, this shows me how little you know about Islam. Please do not take this the wrong way, but you're arguing based on ignorance. With all my sincereity, I'd urge you to study first and then argue. In my debate team (long ago in high school), we were taught to study the issue first and then present the evidence and NEVER to use our emotions. As that gives the proof of our ignorance.

You state:
"West is doing its utmost to distort Islam in as many ways as possible."

Baleya - If that is the case, may I ask why do you live in the West? Do you not know there is a Fatwa against residing in the land of Kuffars!

It is not reccommended to live in Kafir state given that Islamic State exists. But in our day and age, THERE IS NO Islamic State. It is pure Kufr anywhere else. So it doesn't matter where I stay, as whereever I go, I'll be covered with Kufr. AGain, please do not argue based on ignorance. Please make sure you know what you're talking about before posting. Otherwise, it makes you look bad. If you're arguing for the sake of arguing and out of hatred and ignorance, then it doesn't make much sense for me to respond to you in the future.

You state:
"Some Muslims have gone so astray that they say that they want to revise Islam so it can be compatible with today's times.
These pple who say that are total idiots who do NOT understand Islam nor do they have the correct Islamic aqeeda."

Baleya - Islam has to change with times. It cannot stay in the dark ages. Islam, today is very fanatical & radical with each sect calling the other "Kafir" and willing and does kill the other in the name of God.

Logical: Can you please present some evidence that says that Islam has to change with time. On the other hand. I can tell you that Islam DOES NOT need to change. What has to change is our current state of affairs that is being governed kufr. Allah swt has told us 1400 years ago that our deen has been perfected and that he has done a favor on us by choosing Islam for us as a way of living. So as a Muslim, I do not believe that Islam needs to change. Again, what needs to change is, uplifting the kufr system that dominates the world's affairs and replace it with a perfect system, Islam.

You state:
"In the end, I urge you to study Islam from its sources and NOT take examples from today's countries that have Muslims in it."

Baleya - our Prophet said that to gain knowledge one should go even to China. So, nothing wrong in seeking & acquiring knowledge from others.

Yes, to seek knowledge to better ourselves. Not to defend ignorance based on falsehood.

I have studied followers of Islam long & hard and have serious concerns.**
[/QUOTE]

I personally, putting all aside, do not think that you know what you're talking about. I think you're talking based on emotions and ignorace. Again, I mean that with sincereity. Let me know what issues/concerns you have and I'll do my best to address them. If I can not address them, I'll refer you to someone else who can.
My e-mail address is [email protected]

Again, please do not respond back for the sake of arguing. If you do not have sound evidence or a reason, then please do not respond. And take my advise, study Islam and if you have any concerns, then ask around. There are many learned brothers who can help you.

Wa'salam
Mostansar

today for the 1st time i am logging on to the place and discovering that every one is argueing about something which they dont know or dont want to know.........
read Quraan and u will find all the answers......family laws.......women rights.....
regional practices must not be mixed up with
religious constraints........
plight of women in many a nonmuslim countries is far more desperate than mentioned muslim countries.......
consult only and only Quraan when in doubt......and u wont be dissappointed