When Devils Become Angels

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

In the other thread it was discussed that politicians who are declared as Corrupt and Devils suddenly become Angels in the eyes of same dictators. Why? I can give you the examples of certain parliamentarians such as Rao Sikandar, Sher Afgan, Shaikh Rashid, Chaudhry Shujaat, Aftab Sherpao, Faisal Saleh Hayat etc were declared corrupt and devil politicians. Some of them were under NAB interrogation for misappropriating millions and millions of government money. But since they are now supporting the present dictatorship the same people have become angels and perhaps all their corruption cases have been written-off so that they get fresh lease of corrupt life.

My questions are for anti-politicians and pro-dictatorship people. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR CORRUPTION IN POLITICS? What happened to General Musharaf rhetoric that he would clean the corruption in every walk of life in Pakistan? What happened to his promise of devolution of power? I know that he has not magic stick to stop the corruption with one shot but has their any stopping or any improvement in this direction? Is such action will not breed more corruption in politicians? Is it not POLITICS OF GENERALS has always created more corruption than politicians themselves? Was I not correct that ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPT ABSOLUTELY?

Perhaps Generals should realize that running a county is not their cup of tea, let politics being done by politicians without the adulteration. Let the people of Pakistan decide who should rule them. Perhaps General can help in conducting impartial elections and let the judicial system work without interference of any one. Otherwise Politics of Generals will create more FUNDMENTALISM one side and CORRUPT POLITICIANS on other side.

FARID

2

Dont forget the PPP. Bhutto and all. Everybody is waiting for their share of the pie.

3

Unfortunately Musharraf had to make a deal with the devil, for Pakistan's stability and economic growth. I won't argue on the corrupt policiticans in office, but atleast this way we have atleast the president who's not corrupt. We say alot about democracy etx... sure it works but when you have strong institutions, depoliticized police, depoliticized judiciary and strong checks and balances. Alot of people have argued that we should let the political process take its course. The problem is this. We can look from our history, although there were very sincere politicians before Ayuba Khans's era we know what was happening no stability unfortunately not a lot of economic growth. THen we had Ayub Khan like him or not but modern Pak industry is a lot due to hig brining stability and having pro poor and middleclass policies, at the time remmeber Pakistan was considered a model of progress for all of developing countries. Then we have Z.A. Bhutto and his socialist policies. Pakistan lost alot of capital, economy stagnated, corruption which was confined to the upper echelons of gevernment began sinking into every day life. Zia took over, although corruption continued, poverty came down annual growth rate 6%. he dies BB and NS era, Pakistan on the brink of extinction, out treasury next to bankrupt no longer to crooks do there things hidden now theres a very public display of theft and plunder. OCT 99, Pakistan on the Brink of bankruptcy, Musharraf comes in. many prolems face Pakistan he handles them successfully, and Pakistan charges forward like a bull. Economy is picking up, manufacturing sector which was declining is now pushing the economy forward. Macro-economic indicators are better then anytime in history of Pak.

you probably see the jist of my argument, that the basic thing is first to have survival, food, security, which only the military provided.

only what 20% or something of the voters actually voted, in Pakistan the masses just don't belive that there vote will be counted, why due to the inept and corruption of the politicians. The people of Pakistan are strong if they so desire they can easily bring down the gov;t. When Musharraf took over. even if 5.000 people had rallied, the generals would have packed up and moved back into barracks, did anybody protetst no they didn't. And your esteemed champion of democray BB, welcomed the Coup.

I am not naive enough to say that some generals are crooks, (BEg, Mirza etx) but what I will say is Pakistan needs stability, so that its economy can become resilient and the poor can become the middlecalss. Who will naturaly demand and have the right to full and unfettered democracy. but don;t try to put the cart before the horse, because if you do once again we will find ourselves weak and helpless

4

Who's the bigger Corrupt, the Corrupt or those who help the Corrupt do what they want? People like Shujaat and countless others allowed Nawaz Sharif and Benazir and Army Generals to do what they wanted? Any government built on these people will end up creating a new Generation of corrupt leaders.

5

Nice thread Farid... While Musharraf taunts and bans Benazir and Nawaz, he praises their former ponies, like Shujaat and Sh. Rashid... The reason is obvious, these little ponies are not a big threat to him, as long as he gets them in his payroll...

I cant believe a degraded 'badmash from gujrat' like Ch. Shujaat is running our country!!!

6

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Who's the bigger Corrupt, the Corrupt or those who help the Corrupt do what they want? People like Shujaat and countless others allowed Nawaz Sharif and Benazir and Army Generals to do what they wanted? Any government built on these people will end up creating a new Generation of corrupt leaders.
[/QUOTE]

Corrupt are those who actually plunder..and I doubt that the generals ever assissted BB. NS yes but BB...nope....however I belive the future of Pakistan lies in strenthening the institution...granting independence of judiciary, police etx....and once everything is settled then we can get the army back to its duty....but first we need major reforms...but last time I went to Pakistan I did see one good thing which was not so present before. People are starting to speak up, more then before but still theres fear from gunda politicians.. But I think one thing we all must agree is that the future looks brighter/

7

Badshah,

You are forgetting the most important and number one in your list is DEMOCRACY. Without democratic government you can never stabilize any institution, you are talking about.

FARID

8

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Farid: *
Badshah,

You are forgetting the most important and number one in your list is DEMOCRACY. Without democratic government you can never stabilize any institution, you are talking about.

FARID
[/QUOTE]

I see your point..you can even use certain examples to actually protray it like the US and its development. But I belive Pakistan is a different case. As the problem doesn't actually lie in the democratic system but rather the politicians... I belive we need a new generation of polticians the present ones are bunch of low lifes. But I believe that at MP should not be allowed to become a dictator in a area. he should pass laws and thats it..its not his job to get in the way of police etx... these are the fatal flaws of our system although we are an independent people we have yet to acknowledge it and get out of the colonial system.

9

Badshah,

It is unfortunate that screening process has never been allowed to clear the stupid and corrupt politicians. Had people removed the successive government through elections, you could have seen better people ruling the country. Military boot had created so-called victims (who most are corrupt) rather than good politicians. Let the screening process be carried out by the people deciding in the elections that should rule them, better and better people will come forward in the successive elections. Those people will definitely strengthen and stabilized the institutions, you are talking about.

FARID

10

Re: When Devils Become Angels

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Farid: *
In the other thread it was discussed that politicians who are declared as Corrupt and Devils suddenly become Angels in the eyes of same dictators. Why? I can give you the examples of certain parliamentarians such as Rao Sikandar, Sher Afgan, Shaikh Rashid, Chaudhry Shujaat, Aftab Sherpao, Faisal Saleh Hayat etc were declared corrupt and devil politicians. Some of them were under NAB interrogation for misappropriating millions and millions of government money. But since they are now supporting the present dictatorship the same people have become angels and perhaps all their corruption cases have been written-off so that they get fresh lease of corrupt life.

My questions are for anti-politicians and pro-dictatorship people. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR CORRUPTION IN POLITICS? What happened to General Musharaf rhetoric that he would clean the corruption in every walk of life in Pakistan? What happened to his promise of devolution of power? I know that he has not magic stick to stop the corruption with one shot but has their any stopping or any improvement in this direction? Is such action will not breed more corruption in politicians? Is it not POLITICS OF GENERALS has always created more corruption than politicians themselves? Was I not correct that ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPT ABSOLUTELY?

Perhaps Generals should realize that running a county is not their cup of tea, let politics being done by politicians without the adulteration. Let the people of Pakistan decide who should rule them. Perhaps General can help in conducting impartial elections and let the judicial system work without interference of any one. Otherwise Politics of Generals will create more FUNDMENTALISM one side and CORRUPT POLITICIANS on other side.

FARID
[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with u bro.....musharraf talks about looting by nawaz.....what about the chaudharies, shaikh rasheed. The chaudharies had loans worth millions written off by musharraf's govt....the first thing faisal saleh hayat did after takin over was havin all cases against him closed and the people who were investigating these cases are now being targetted.
No doubt nawaz looted us.....but his PML(N) now known as PML(Q) had an equal share!
So when musharraf talks about pakistan's poor....doesnt he think of these corrupt people.....they got ministries as a reward for splitting the PML(N).....our PM saahab was involved with corruption while he was minister of the railways(i think).....they were all given options by musharraf
GO TO JAIL OR ACCEPT A POST IN THE GOVERNMENT

Badshah...u talk about a president who isnt corrupt....even nawaz's president was not corrupt......so are musharraf n nawaz the same!

11

What screenig process are you talking about..the one that made Z.A Bhutto so powerfull that he was able to make his own gestapo type police force...or the one by BB and NS...each time the people through one out the otherr idiot came to power. For once Pakistan has a real chance to get out of poverty and misery...let it happen..

12

Bila_Tarar,

I agree with you 100%.

Bashah,

ZAB was not powerful, though he was elected by people of Pakistan. He was not perfect, he did excellent job while working as PM of Pakistan. Military boot finished his legacy instead of removing through elections.

When ZAB said power lies in the hands of people, Zia said real power lies in the hands of military. Zia was right and he abolished the screening process by thowing the 1973 Constituition in the GARBAGE.

WHAT Iam TALKING ABOUT should not be difficult to understand for a UFT student.

FARID

13

Is it the same ZAB, who rigged the elections. woops, screening process of the people didn't work did it. Anyways...look the problem in Pakistan is not democracy, the military or whatever. The problem is that people are given certain duties but they instead choose to expand there authority. What we need is a clear cut system. Like in canada, you won;t see the MP intefering in the judicial system etx. This culture of Sifarish, and Rishwat has to end so that poor are given the same opportunities as the powerful. That is the basic problem in Pakistan elected "representatives" don't know don't know when to stop. so for this comment let see you've allready called me stupid, why not call me an idiot this time.

14

well I agree with badshah here, Farid your intention also good but when you see the ground realities about politicians, I assure you let free these politicians, they will do the same as previous politicals have done it, ...
ever wonder why??
cause we dont have a powerful judicial system to punish the culprits so no body has fear of getting caught. They only beleive in money and looting.
I am not advocating army, but in reality it has provided a detterence to stop that kind of open fearless looting of public money of Pakistan.

Present system is not ideal but its certainly better than the all politician rule.

We have to give this transition period a chance, let it change the culture a bit until we are able to cope with total free democracy free or looters until then I think its better to have this kind of system in place.

According to you give chance to elections... and re-election. looters changed power from one hand to another while country plunged to its highest poverty line, they didnt care, they continued, and they will again do that.
Sure present system doesnt have angels, still many black sheeps. but its better than the previous savage looters.
we certainly lack the real leaders like MA jinnah, Liaqat Ali khan.

BB is not a political leader, being a daughter of a leader doesnt automatically grant the will and attitude of a real leader

ZAB was one leader with a vision though it didnt work and his power hunger broke Pakistan.

NS is also not a political leader ,have nt got any vision

unfortunately we had seen good leaders Ayub khan, and upto some extent musharraf from army.

I will go with any kind of leader civil or army dictator if its better for Pakistan, I dont beleive in democracy for the sake of democracy if it only it bring more looting.

let this mixture or army and civilian work being watched by eachother. until we have systems to accomodate total democracy.

One cant build a building without its structure!

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Farid: *
Badshah,

You are forgetting the most important and number one in your list is DEMOCRACY. Without democratic government you can never stabilize any institution, you are talking about.

FARID
[/QUOTE]
Democracy (Western Style) is a big farce under cover of which all illegal actions are taken. Bush is a fine example!