Logically, I failed to see what is wrong with interest system. This system has been economically sucessful much longer that Islam itself. This system has stood the test of time. Although you can find millions of faults with it, logically there is nothing wrong with this system except that your religion forbids it.
Interest should not have been a “Sin” to begin with.
Ananlyze_It: I've actually done a whole research paper on this topic and it turns out your logic is flop. Look around the world, the banks that prosper in the economic system the most are ISLAMIC BANKS. It has been reported by many non muslim sources that interest is not the way to go.
Now that interest is implemented in the western society it is very hard to pull the plug on it so they just put it along with the economic system.
I'd explain more but there is no point unless I post ALL of my research and sources.
Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.
Love happens once . . .
[quote]
Originally posted by analyze it:
Although you can find millions of faults with it, logically there is nothing wrong with this system except that your religion forbids it. Interest should not have been a "Sin" to begin with.**
[/quote]
**Ibrahim says; Hi Analyze it! just imagine you are Shamshad and tell us If you will consider interest payments a sin or Allah (swt) had made a mistake in forbidding it? B]
Every day, Shamshad rolls bidis for hours. She rolls 500 a day.
Her story is typical. Six months ago she suffered seizures that threatened her life. The family desperately needed money for
medicine so it struck a terrible bargain. It sold Shamshad's labor to a money lender in return for a loan.
To save her life, the family sold her freedom. Now she works for the money lender. Most often children are bonded for many years, laboring anonymously in their own homes as childhood passes them by. Shamshad was traded for $25.
"We've had children from age 5, 6, 7, 10, 12," said Special Commissioner P.W.C. Davidar, an Indian government official fighting bonded labor in Tamil Nadu. "It's all ages. As soon as you can, and you know how to roll bidis, you are an eligible candidate."
Some Indians are selling their own children into this kind of work. *"We've had cases where you have the parents having taken a
debt, getting into bondage; and then the father dies. And the son takes on, he inherits the debt," * Davidar said.
The origins of bonded servitude date back centuries, to the times of Indian feudalism. But in the modern day, the practice has been
banned. In 1976 the Indian government outlawed bonded servitude all across the country.
But 60 Minutes II found in remote India, it is still a common practice. ** Some observers estimate that at least 10 million people are in bonded labor - many of them children. **
According to Gary Haugen, an American lawyer devoting himself to rescuing children from illegal bondage, the average price for a child is $25 to $50. The length of service can last from a few years to a lifetime.
This fall Haugen went to a village in Tamil Nadu, deep in India's interior, to find out more about bonded children.
Haugen once prosecuted crooked police for the U.S. Justice Department. He led the United Nation's investigation of war crimes
in Rwanda. Now he's set up a nonprofit group of investigators he calls the International Justice Mission.
In his briefcase, Haugen carries shackles that a colleague pried from the ankles of a boy who once ran away from a money lender.
** "Some evil in the world dies hard," **Haugen said. "Even with slavery, it's alive and well in some places in the world. And this is one of the places where you can still find children sold into slavery; and (the) leg irons are a powerful reminder to me of that reality."
After a journey halfway across India, Haugen, shadowed by Pelley, arrived in the heart of Tamil Nadu. In the village of Krishnagiri,
Haugen went to the home of the Fareed family. Two of their daughters, Karmela and Sumitbonu, were bonded to the village money lender.
According to Haugen, the girls had to work 10 hours a day, six days a week, producing a quota of 1,000 bidis each.
** "They've been working like this for two years. And the trick is, you can't get out of this debt unless you pay it off in a lump sum,"**
Haugen said. "But they're never paid enough to be able to meet that. ** And they are charged enormous interest rates, sometimes
500 percent a year, 1,200 percent a year. ** And so this is bonded child labor."
The girls, Haugen said, are producing bidi cigarettes specifically for the Mangalore Ganesh Bidi Works, which exports bidis to the United States and is one of the principal exporters to the country. It claims
that it employs an adult work force and insists that bonded labor is never used in making its cigarettes. Using indentured children would make its products illegal in America.
Insaaniyat
The Qur'aan states:
002.275 Those who devour usury will not stand except as stand one whom the Evil one by his touch Hath driven to madness. That is because they say: "Trade is like usury," but Allah hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for Allah (to judge); but those who repeat (The offence) are companions of the Fire: They will abide therein (for ever).
002.276 Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity: For He loveth not creatures ungrateful and wicked.
002.278 O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and give up what remains of your demand for usury, if ye are indeed believers.
If according to you, Interest should NOT have been a sin from the offset as it has more benefit than disadvantages. Then why do you think Allah forbade Usury. Is the Qur'aan wrong in outlawing Usury?
Furthermore, the Qur'aan also states:
004.160 For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from Allah’s Way;-
004.161 That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men’s substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.
The above ayat confirms that Usury was also banned from the time of Moses.
The question you to ask yourself is 'if the Qur'aan is being questioned today, then what/who will be questioned tommorrow'?
Coconut: I would like to know more about results of your research but be brief.
Interest is probably not the only way to go but it is probably and arguably the best way. If not how come this system has survived and flourished for centuries. Just answer this!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember: Survival of the fittest.........
Ibrahim: I don't get what you are trying to state by this cut and paste. Try to use your own thoughts sometimes. You are referring to slavery and bonded servitude. The topic was about interest, hellooooo........
Sholay: Does Allah forbid you from thinking, thinking and analyzing everything about your life or does he asks you to be like mentally retarded not questioning, thinking or analyzing, judging..
I think it would be separate discussion whether we think about everything in our life in philosophical way or just accept it without question. Question to you is that, Is this the purpose of brain given to us by Allah??? What will the difference between an animal and human then???
Analyze It
Firstly and foremostly you have decided to think a bit too far ahead of yourself, thus advocating USURY without consulting the Qur'aan. Or maybe you have consulted the Qur'aan but have decided to ignore Allah's warning. Only you know the answer to this. Enough of the speculation for now!
Secondly, the animal and human both think. The only difference is the element of CHOICE.
Allah has given us the capability of choice, but that does not mean we think and question blindly.
There is a big difference between Pondering over Allah and His Creation, and Questioning Allah and His Creation.
You have not questioned the reasoning for the non permissability of Usury, but have condoned such practice despite the Qur'aan stating otherwise.
You have based your acceptability of Usury from Mankinds concept and disregarded Usury from Allah's concept.
The Qur'aan has made the stance of Usury quite clear in a number of ayats, but what really surprises me is why do you Condone rather then Condemn.
Interest is used to control the flow of money. If the govt. can find another way of achieving the same one can do away with interest. I am not expert on the subject but the interest that you pay all your life with principle amount stays the same must be haram.
I've heard some islamic banks done away with interest, they survive on profit & loss basis.
bro mad_scientist has shown some links to 'non-interest' banking in past, may be if he comes back to this forum (or if you can find out his posts) then you can get the links.
Not only "interest" based economy has survived.... 'secularism' has also 'survived', 'atheism' has also survived, 'idol-worshipping' has also survived etc. etc... the list goes on and on.. does it make them all "BEST" or "rightly-justified" or "fittest" ? I don't think so.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
[quote]
Originally posted by analyze it:
**Logically, I failed to see what is wrong with interest system. This system has been economically sucessful much longer that Islam itself. This system has stood the test of time. Although you can find millions of faults with it, logically there is nothing wrong with this system except that your religion forbids it.
Interest should not have been a "Sin" to begin with.**
[/quote]
Logically there is nothing wrong with interest, other than the fact that you are held hostage to your lender for as long as you will take to pay off your loan.
Lets talk about buying a house.
1. If you get a 30 yr mortgage, you will probably end up paying more than 3 times the price of the house....just the cost.
2. You will be paying insurance for your house.
3. You will be paying taxes for your house.
4. You will be paying for all the repairs.
5. Try missing one payment, and the bank will promptly take over.
6. By the time you actually own the house (after 30 years), you will have outgrown it..(perhaps even sooner).
Interest is not haraam without reason. An Interest based system only looks out for the lender. One may be duped into thinking that by getting a check for $200,000 from the bank, his buying power has suddenly increased by that much. What people ignore is the fact that the property that they will buy with that money will be liened by the bank till its paid off, complete with interest, on the bank's terms.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by analyze it: Ibrahim: I don't get what you are trying to state by this cut and paste. Try to use your own thoughts sometimes. You are referring to slavery and bonded servitude. The topic was about interest, hellooooo........ /QUOTE]
Ibrahim says: salaams to all.
Analyze it! You have FAILED to analyze it! Had you done that you would have pinned down the root cause of the “sufferings” by billions of souls on this planet…which is “usury”. That story was about the inhumane treatment man enjoin upon his own kind on account of usury. Which you have FAILED to understand, which shows that you lack the capability to analyze things rationally.
The reason why I used that cut and paste was to see how well you faired in analyzing matters and sadly you have proofed that you are Not very capable in such matters.
Now the point I was conveying being…usury leads to human suffering and hence becomes a sin for those who enjoin it as well as practice it. Hence it was forbidden by Allah (swt)
Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 3881 Narrated by Jabir ibn Abdullah
** Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) cursed the accepter of interest and its payer, and one who records it, and the two witnesses; and he said: They are all equal. **
Ibrahim: so much short temper, tsk, tsk. You “Failed”, so many times. I enjoyed it. Unfortunately you still need to learn to avoid cut and paste as is usual in all your posts and give us some original thoughts of yours. Stick to topic which was interest-ing.
BTW: Since I can not think or anlyze matters and not capable, I also FAILED to understand what is the meaning of proofed. Please teach. Thanks.
Akif: good analysis, thanks, I agree with you.You also say that, " Logically there is nothing wrong with interest…".
You also mentioned about paying for all repairs, insurance, taxes on the house. But you would still be responsible for all these even if you buy the house without mortgage.What does these have to do with interest?
BTW I was waiting for your answer about how a food borne disease can be transmitted just by being in the same room except that the diseased person is puking over the healthy person.
Interest is against the very pillar of Islam called zakat. In zakat, money goes from rich to poor. But in interest, money goes from poor to rich, and the rich becomes more and more rich, and the poor becomes more poor. and the society starts developing gap between the rich and the poor sectors. Paying interest can also develop a resentful sentiments amoung poors toward wealthies and that may cause divisions in the society.
The reason you can't see anything wrong in interest might be you being on the earning side and becoming richer through interest income. Or you just want to pay more than the regular price, and make your self poorer, which is rather illogical.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by analyze it:
Ibrahim: so much short temper, tsk, tsk.
Ibrahim says; hmm.. so by reading my reply you believe I have a short temper?? Or are you incapable of comprehending my answers which are direct and to the point. My friend, Sorry I do not participate in forums to pass my time But to provide INFO for those who may need it ( part of charity)
My motto being ** “Be Blunt without being rude. Be brief without being superficial. Be daring without being reckless” **
My apologize If you find my nature not to your liking . But I do not change or wear a different hat for different people. I deal with all people in the same manner and seldom get angry.
Ibrahim says; So you know which part of my reply is a cut and paste?? Does it make you feel uneasy that I may use cut and paste in order to reduce my work and provide the info which has already been written?? Since most of what Ibrahim says is what Ibrahim says and Not what someone else said, I wonder why you would be taking the time to say this, whilst actually avoiding my points according to the topic??
Ibrahim says: where have I avoided the subject or derailed the topic??
analyze it: BTW: Since I can not think or anlyze matters and not capable, I also FAILED to understand what is the meaning of proofed. Please teach. Thanks.
Ibrahim says: It seems quite apparent that you are Not here to discuss but to make your assertions or change the subject , hence I am still waiting for your answer to my earlier question which was “ Did you not consider usury a sin as per my first reply on this thread?
** The secret of failure is trying to please everybody! **
The whole idea of interest lead us to inflation and/or devaluation of money. i.e. THE MAJOR PROBLEM IN THE INTERST BASED SYSTEM. It makes poor poorer and rich richer. When you have a bigger gap between rich and poor then a sense of restlessness is created in society. This system is biased against poor i.e. the majority. Mostly people think that if you don't have an interst based system then you will have some sort of communism/socialism which they don't want. They fail to understand the benefits of an INTEREST-LESS system which can be an alternative to the Capitalistic interest based system.
[quote]
Originally posted by analyze it:
**Logically, I failed to see what is wrong with interest system. This system has been economically sucessful much longer that Islam itself. This system has stood the test of time. Although you can find millions of faults with it, logically there is nothing wrong with this system except that your religion forbids it.
Interest should not have been a "Sin" to begin with.**
[/quote]
*****A little logic for you Analyze It********
You work hard and you get paid. The money you earn with out working for it is "HARRAM". Makes logical sense to me. I don't know why doesn't it to you.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by analyze it:
Akif: good analysis, thanks, I agree with you.You also say that, " Logically there is nothing wrong with interest…".
You also mentioned about paying for all repairs, insurance, taxes on the house. But you would still be responsible for all these even if you buy the house without mortgage.What does these have to do with interest?
Perhaps I should have mentioned that I was explicitly comparing it with a rented house, where you merely have to pay the rent, and are free from the responsibility of paying taxes, insurance, and repairs.
Even if you talk about buying a house on cash, still though you will have to pay the added costs of insurance and taxes, you will still be saving the X2 amount that you will be paying in interest…and more importantly, you will not be hostage to any bank.
**BTW I was waiting for your answer about how a food borne disease can be transmitted just by being in the same room except that the diseased person is puking over the healthy person.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
**
I thought it would have been simple enough for you to understand. Germs are airborne particles. And if you sit in the same room as someone else, no doubt you will transfer ur germs to them, and they to you. Its just your erroneous perception that gives you a false sense of security of being germ free as long as you dont get puked upon…otherwise you are just as susceptible. make sense?
No more picking on Ibrahim, had enough fun.
No Akif, it does not make sense. To give some credibility, let me tell you that you are discussing with a practicing physician with expertise in infecious and communicable diseases so lets assume that I know more than you in this fieled unless you are also in the same field and that was the reason I got more interest in the topic and it is not just my** erroneous perception**.
Not all germs are airborne particles. Different type of germs need different environment to grow and cultivate. remember we were discussing about food borne diseases and by Definition they are trnsmitted only by food or articles contaminated with infecious food. By definition they do not transmit by air.There are other germs such as germ of tuberculosis which transmit by air(some TB is also transmitted by food though).
If you still insist on your statement please substantiate. I can provide you with hundreds of medical references if you wish.
Analyze it. I appreciate your opinion as a physician. However, I wasnt making my comments as an expert. I was talking of a common daily life phenomenon.
Germs, bacteria, virii are a reality of life. They are everywhere you go, unless you are in a vacuum chamber. My comparison was between being in a room with another person(which includes the possibility of that persons germs getting transferred to u thru the air) and licking food off someone elses fingers(which carries the same possibility, on a higher level). Point being, there is no way to keep one's self pure of these particles, unless, like i mentioned above, one lives in a vacuum. The probability level may be different, but the possibility is the same.
Sometimes a person stays married to an AIDS infected spouse for 30 years, and doesnt catch AIDS....and sometimes a person gets merely pricked by a needle and contracts AIDS. There is no sure fire way of absolute prevention.