So I am having a conversation in gupchat about guru’s and what a guru is when the conversation turned to what a prophet and messenger is. I was explaining that there is a difference between a messenger and a prophet, however certain ppl disagreed with me. So, what I want to know is, what is the difference between a guru, a messenger, a prophet, and a saint?
For example, I say that all messengers were prophets, but not all prophets were messengers.
I personally dont believe in saints, but I’d like to know your definition of one assuming you do.
Are you asking considering urdu or arabic lexican or are you concerned about an Islamic or any other belief's view point?
It is commonly understood in pakistan that prophet & messengers are different. In urdu they are equated as "Rasool" & "Nabi". It is also understood that "Rasool" are considered to be those who are brearers of books/laws while Nabis are those who call people to God & preach from previously revealed books. And so it is argued that all Rasools are Nabis while all Nabis are not Rasools. That's what you were refering to, right?
Munni dahlin', you were right. As AJ put it, Prophets came down with a new message, ie. scripture whilst the messengers came to confirm and spread the already existing scripture. Hence the term Prophet messenger for Muhammad (saw)
To me, a Guru is a hindu/buddhist concept of a spiritual teacher/guide whilst a saint is someone pious, associated with miracles, dedicates his/her life for God.
Are you asking considering urdu or arabic lexican or are you concerned about an Islamic or any other belief's view point?
It is commonly understood in pakistan that prophet & messengers are different. In urdu they are equated as "Rasool" & "Nabi". It is also understood that "Rasool" are considered to be those who are brearers of books/laws while Nabis are those who call people to God & preach from previously revealed books. And so it is argued that all Rasools are Nabis while all Nabis are not Rasools. That's what you were refering to, right?
[/QUOTE]
Yes ahmadjee, I was referring to that exact difference when saying a messenger is different than a prophet. The ones who disagree are the guppies I'd like to particularly hear from, to understand their view on this particular thing.
No, I am not looking particularly from an Islamic viewpoint, any viewpoint will do.
I wasnt even considering lexican when discussing this, so feel free to state what you feel. Thanks.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by hayaa: *
Munni dahlin', you were right. As AJ put it, Prophets came down with a new message, ie. scripture whilst the messengers came to confirm and spread the already existing scripture. Hence the term Prophet messenger for Muhammad (saw)
To me, a Guru is a hindu/buddhist concept of a spiritual teacher/guide whilst a saint is someone pious, associated with miracles, dedicates his/her life for God.
[/QUOTE]
hayaa dahlin, how do u explain miracles regarding saints? Considering ppl who are not considered pious also experience miracles. I'd like to know the difference, and should saints be reverred in your opinion because of this? Tanku.
Actually, I disagree with this definition. I have not read any Quranic verse or Hadiths that supports such a belief.
Maybe later I will give some of my references.. (I will have to do some research ...)
The reason why I asked in which context you wanted an answer, was because everyone will have his or her own definition. For example, Catholics have a very strict definition of who is to be considered a saint, while other Christian sects don't go to such details. In common English lexicon, you can even call a good person a saint. :-)
ahmadjee, I have read it, and thus follow this definition. But I agree, that everyone has a difference of opinion, thats why I wanted to know what everyones opinion is, and what they base it on. smile
Let me see if I can find support/references for my view.
Munni, experiencing miracles and performing them are two different things. The way I see it is that Islam requires one to have complete faith and submission in order to seek the truth while saints may pursue the truth through reason and the spiritual side of Islam or others that pursue it by purifying their minds and souls.
We have examples throughout history of known muslim saints, and then there is the Sufi doctrine that relies heavily on the concept of sainthood.
When in doubt.. ask the Qur'an.. (note not the interpretor)..
here is how the interpretors confuse the already confused:
Shakir 2:213 people are a single nation; so Allah raised prophets ÇáäøóÈöíøöíäó as bearers of good news and as warners, and He revealed with them the Book with truth, that it might judge between people in that in which they differed; and none but the very people who were given it differed about it after clear arguments had come to them, revolting among themselves; so Allah has guided by His will those who believe to the truth about which they differed and Allah guides whom He pleases to the right path.
[Yusufali 2:213] Mankind was one single nation, and Allah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; but the People of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differ among themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guided the believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allah guided whom He will to a path that is straight.
PakistaniAbroad: Anyone care to ask Mr. Yusufali why he chose to interpret ÇáäøóÈöíøöíäó as Messengers in this verse?
Also it's clear that being a Prophet doesn't automatically mean you have a scripture revealed to you.. otherwise Allah wouldn't always mention it separately
Those who go by the above mentioned definition of Messenger verses Prophet, usually also believe that there were 4 books. 1) Tora’iat (Hazrat Musa ‘as’) 2) Zaboor (Hazrat Daud a.s) 3) Injeel (Hazrat Isa ‘as’) 4) Quran (AnHazoor saw). So, as per the definition there should be only 4 Rasools. But in Quran other prophets who did not bring a book are also called as Rasool! For example, while mentioning Hazrat Ishmael (as), it is said:
And relate the story of Ishmael as mentioned in the Book. He was indeed true to his promises. And he was a Messenger, a Prophet.
Some other translations:
019.054
YUSUFALI: Also mention in the Book (the story of) Isma’il: He was (strictly) true to what he promised, and he was a messenger (and) a prophet.
PICKTHAL: And make mention in the Scripture of Ishmael. Lo! he was a keeper of his promise, and he was a messenger (of Allah), a prophet.
SHAKIR: And mention Ismail in the Book; surely he was truthful in (his) promise, and he was a messenger, a prophet.
IMO, the definition that has become a popular belief, is man made!
As far as how to differentiate between religious guru, saint and prophets is concerned, I would say the biggest distinction is that Gurus & Saints don’t claim to be from Allah. They don’t claim that last night in a vision Allah told them to do this & that or move from here to there. Though they do claim to have a close relationship with God. Prophets on the other hand do everything with the consent of God and so they claim to be divinely guided!
In a common language, people call any leader a Guru, like a classic music student will call his teacher a Guru.
Also it's clear that being a Prophet doesn't automatically mean you have a scripture revealed to you.. otherwise Allah wouldn't always mention it separately
[/QUOTE]
So you are stating that there is a definite difference between a prophet and a messenger, according to Qur'an?
If you want to concentrate on linguistic meaning then dont involve religion. However, if you want to see it from religious aspect then you have to refer Quran. All those people who are mentioned in Quran are the prophets. All of them brought the message of Allah to mankind. Some of them were give books others were give small articles, In arabic we call them saheefa. Even those people who just spread religion of God without any book ,after all, received all guidence and knowledge from Allah and were declared prophets by Quran.
Saints, Scholars, Imams are all those people who lead their communities and present their interpretations to them. They are just guides and they can'nt achieve any status. Some of them are gifted people of Allah and they also show some miracles. I ,personally, have'nt seen anyone showing any miracle but i have heard stories about them. May be they are true may be false.
Sorry Munni, Its a bit late. :( Due to some personal problems.
Anyway.
First of all. I told you On chat as well that there is no concept of Guru's in Islam. Guru just mean a teacher. But mostly thought to be a spiritual teacher.
Saints are actually, what we call. AULIYA.
Prophets are All the Nabi's. I mean all 1 Lac 24 Thousand of them.
But There is difference in Nabi and Rusool.
Rusool were those Nabis, who were Bound to preach. All Nabis were not bound to preach.
Now a messenger could be anyone. Nothing Theological about them.
:D but keep in mind that I am not an Islamic Scholar. so DONT BELIEVE ME.
:) I told you what I knew. It may not be correct info.