NYA, sometimes I wonder if you are on the payroll of Vajpayee (among others). WTF are you talking about, "If you ask me, I will say that our culture (by that I mean Pakistani culture) is endangered because of Islamicization of sorts." ?
Pakistan isn't Saudi culture any more than it is Indian or American. Although there is probably a case to be made that it is a mixture of all 3 plus a few more. Don't talk sh*t.
About the eating of Macdonald's crap, this has been a gripe of mine for a while now, so I agree. It's not that I don't like foreign food, in fact, I'm a big fan. I just don't like to see rubbish sold for a big price due to branding. Macdonald's food should be cheap and cheerful common-as-muck food. In Pakistan it's seen as a delicacy. Something here is seriously wrong.
If a Big Mac cost 20 rupees I would say great. 500? Get lost.
It costs around 1200 rupees for a family of 7, 3 adults and 4 kids at McDonalds in Lahore. Now take the same family to, say, Salt 'n Pepper and order the similar meals (Beef burger, fries, coke/pepsi) and then compare the prices. Do the math.
Also keep in mind McDonalds also have play area where kids go and play and that's one of the things appealing middle class families in Pakistan these days - a place where parents can sit and relax while childeren go and play within one restuarant.
If the same family goes somewhere else, say, food street or other food joints for, say, fried fish, it'll cost them round about the same with no play area. So McDonalds is offering value to consumers and I don't think it's expensive. (I remeber seeing an ad reading 99 rupees for meal - I don't think that's bad at all).
Indian culture is no different in these matters. I was in Delhi when the first Mc Donalds opened. The line was more than a mile long . People with Bachelors and Masters degrees applied for a job there. At the counter no one would speak in Hindi or Urdu. Every one wsas putting on a western accent!!! it was Hillarious !!
Xtreme, since you failed to grasp my point, I guess, I need to elaborate my position. Having lived in Pakistan most of my life, and being culturally aware as I am, I can say with confidence that Islamicization has influenced our indigenous culture (I am not saying if that is good or bad, all I am saying is that it is a fact). Let me give you a few example: the Film Industry of Lahore, now completely defunct (what do you think were the reasons for that?)….Hira Mandi (a sub-continental center of Dance, Arts and Culture) completely defunct. Contact between men and women is discouraged and looked down upon and is institutionalized (mamas get special treatment and don’t have to stand in long lines to buy Movie tickets)…..separate seating for men and women on all occasions.
It never used to be like that. There is nothing Indian about it. It is all due to an overdrive to Islamicize the nation.
I still am very proud of my culture and I would hate to see it sucked up (whatever is left of it) by Mullahs in the name of Islam. Are you aware of the dozen of Fatwas that have been issued calling Kite-Flying non-Islamic activity, or playing Cricket on Fridays a sin? I guess you have your head firmly placed in sand and refuse to take it out.
I did say that ours is an amalgam of many cultures and sub-cultures.
I was under the impression that it costs more than 1200 Rs to feed a family of 7 in Macdonalds Pakistan. More like 4-500 Rs per head but I could be wrong. anyway, the main point i was making remains the same - MacDonalds is considered fast food for the average Joe where we live. In Pakistan it seems to be haute cuisine which seems sort of strange.
Regarding the play area and general cleanliness I agree, it's a big plus point.
NYA,
Islamization has influenced our indiginous culture but then so what? so has capitalism, socialism, hedonism and any amount of other 'isms'. That's life. brits are often moaning about American culture eroding good old Blighty values - whatever they are. Where once there were chip shops in Bradford now there is curry houses. It works both ways.
The film industry in lahore is defunct because they churn out crap films. if you ever get to see a modern Pakistani film you'll see for yourself that the mullah's influence is pretty minimal. Pakistani films are just plain low quality so why blame people for not wanting to watch them?
As for the fatwas regarding kite-flying and cricket, do you think anybody takes any notice? Culture is always evelving, i don't think it's right to point to one period of time and say 'it used to be like this'. for that matter, a thousand years ago we were probably barebcueing widows as part of our indiginous culture. Can you deny it?
Xtreme, while Andhra contemplates how to get in, let me take a moment. You ask ‘so what’, now just imagine if someone had guts to stand up to Taliban for destroying Buddhas. I know you are right, in a few hundred years from today, no one will remember what happened and who did what, but it does not mean that we should not take pride in our customs. Will you as easily accept some hoodlums going into Lahore museum and destroying all artifacts that represent our past? I sincerely hope that you wont say ‘so what’ if that happens. There are voices that have stood up to these Mullahs and that’s why some of it is still preserved. If we let them have their way, we might as well call ourselves a branch of Talibanism (another ism for you).
I am glad that you agreed that Mullahs had a hand in destroying Hira Mandi. You are totally mistaken about the kinds of Movies that came out of Lahore Film Industry. I don’t need to remind you of classics as Anwara, Moula Jatt, Mahi Munda, Najoo, just to name a few from a list of thousands. I agree that the current movies are crap, but not the old ones.
As you pointed out so rightly, culture kina evolves.
This particulat practice came into vogue, when Hindu women preferred immolating themselves rather than fall into the hands of invaders.
I think we should learn the lessons from the past and try to rectify the mistakes.
Now the HIndus have agitated as far back as 1800s and made the British pass a law making barbecuing widows illegal.
And if I pass the same critical eye to other parts of the WOrld what do I find?
1.Locking up women and beheading Criminals.
2.Blowing up statues of other religions.
3.Kidnapping and beheading innocent tourists and journalists.
4.Burning books and persecuting authors.
Now since Xtreme Bhai is so rightly concerned about bad cultural practices cutting across religions, I thought it would help if I do the same.
And I urge all good hearted people to hurry and join the effort.
After all ‘barbecuing widows’ is long since outlawed, but blowing up statutes is not!!!
what customs it it we should take pride in exactly NYA? the one's you can remember from your era or should we go a bit further back than that? If no one in Afghanistan had the guts to stop the Buddha destruction, that's their loss. we aren't answerable for what goes on in other nations. If Mullahs destroyed Heera Mandi then it's because the public didn't feel strongly enough to stop them. Why didn't mullahs manage to ban kite-flying or cricket if they are so all-powerful?
This is similar to your blaming mullahs for the crap movies coming out of Lahore. I haven't seen many of those movies you mentioned but I know that the standard has gone down just from clips of old films that are shown nowadays. Forty years ago we had Waheed Murad (I think that was his name) and now we have apes like Shaan. Whose fault is that? Is it really down to Mullahs?
As for the rest of the thread, Yes. I agree with you. I think Mullahs have nothing to do with Pakistani Movies being crappy.
Because Pak Movies were always crappy even before Mullahs became a force!!
As for the ‘Hindu’ practices like Basant, I don’t know. Maybe a coupla Fatwas will solve the problem.
McDonalds, honestly I agree with you. I think people are just going for ‘Foreign’ stuff.
Like Kentucky Fried Chicken is an upscale thing in Bangalore when I was there.
Here in US you gotta bribe people to eat in KFC!!
It is our problem. After all why do we need the Foreign Fast Food chains to tell us clenliness standards are to be manitained and ‘Family’ atmosphere has to be created in Restaurants.
Instead of whining about it, we should ponder about why you need ‘Goras’ to teach us even ‘Hospitality’, supposed to be our speciality!!
Let me help you get over your brain washed lamer indian mentality. Pakistan’s culture, her people are very unique to the country and thats where we derive our cultural expression from. I have several indian freinds and though I share many interest s with them including politics and sports, not in the least bit does means that I identify with their culture.
All in all, you east Punjbais are the ones who share Pakistan’s culture and affinities, dont try to encompass the sovereignity of other countries and peoples who have nothing to do with you by labelling them Indian. Same is your problem in kashmnir and same is your problem in living peacefully with other countries with mututal respect.
Keep your culture and your boudaries to yourself or else this socialist expansionist rhetoric can be taekn up by other countries as well.
Ill go even as far and say that although you use Urdu (the national languauge of Pakistan) in your movies instead of hindi (Indians national language) it does not mean that bollywood is an extension of Pakistan.
Maintain your self respect with out imposing it on others…lest you wanna find an independant, exclusive people disgusted with your blabberings.
NYA-
u don't make any sense at all. Officially change your 'homeland' to India. Islamization of Pakistan is what distinguishes it from India and in my opinion that is one thing that is worth keeping about the culture.
My point in this post is that Pakistanis clearly have forgotten or never learned the true meaning of manners, 'Iqlaq', tahseeb, tameez, ---etiquette which has clearly been demonstrated by Islaam.
Actions speak louder than words, just look at the Pakistani Iqlaq in this thread, PA is the poster child for it. Is his behaviour and name calling in accord with your views of being Pakistani?
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Originally posted by Andhra: Instead of whining about it, we should ponder about why you need 'Goras' to teach us even 'Hospitality', supposed to be our speciality!!
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Good point Andhra. You've surprised me with this one.
You see, ‘Pakistan’ didn’t exist until 50 or odd years ago.
That’s why I called ‘Pakistani Culture’ an OxyMoron!!
It is like saying ‘Israeli Culture’ instead of ‘Jewish’ culture!! To give them a break Israelis don’t claim ‘Israeli’ culture.
Now, if you are thinking that anybody in India is trying to claim anything Pakistani, don’t flatter yourself.
Imagine India would have politicians like Nawaz Sharif and generals like Yahya Khan if Pakistanis are a part of India, not to speak of drugs and guns!!
Muni,,sorry about that..what the fluck is Iqlaq? Do you mean the one demonstrated by Xtreme? Islamicization has the same to do with Iqlaq (if I am right in assuming what you mean by this strange word) as a typewriter to an elephant. You can only understand one’s culture by interacting with someone from that place, and it seems that you have been surrounded by some iqlaqless morons who happen to be Pakistanis. Where did you get the idea that Islam distinguishes Pakistan from India? I mean hello. There are plenty of Muslims in India too. It is not the Islam, but the Islamicization of the country. If the founding fathers wanted it to be what it is today, they would have made it that way to begin with and then there will be no one willing to live in this mess.
So what you wanted to See good has made you blind
And what you wanted to Be yours has made it Mine
So don’t you lock up Something that you
Wanted to see fly
Hands are for shaking No not tying
I sure don’t Mind a change But I fell on black Days
How would I know That this could be My fate