What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Bro this applies to you as well… we dont have to go far, lets recall ur earlier post.

If it is quoted by a shia user and shia author then its insult of Mola Ali a.s …

What if a sunni author quoted it, u have any words of wisdom for him ?

42

Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Aqeel, Asad ul Ghaybah is a Sunni book. BOY-NICE pointed it out and Ibn Sadique admit that he made a mistake. I was not trying to insult Imam Ali (as), the post was with sarcasm.

43

Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Exactly thats my point... He made a mistake and thought it was a shia author......So he considered it was an insult, Not a big deal. But now he realized it is indeed a sunni author so would he accept that Author has indeed Insulted Mola Ali a.s and Bibi Umme Kulsoom a.s ?

I understood ur sarcasm from the time u posted it.

44

Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

^ Just to my clarify my position

I like to debate fairly and Honour of all members of Prophet's (peace be upon him) is very dear to me, whether they be sons daughters, wives, son-in-laws, father-in-laws, cousins etc etc.....

I found the text demeaning.

But the fact remains a fact and confirmed so by numerous narrations in Shia and Sunni narrations!!!

45

Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Nop, its not as that simple, if that is a fact according to you then you have to admit that there are some other facts attached to the Sunni reports regarding the issue which render the character of Hz Umar very.....' negative'. (I am being very carefull in choosing the words).

46

Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

I am not talking about the Sunni traditions which say that such and such person got married to such and such lady. I am referring to those Sunni reports that talks about the marriage in detail i.e. starting from the proposal. You cannot escapte that and bring traditions of your own choice.

47

Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

I wish that you had my post (quoted above) well and pondered over it.

  1. I am surprised that narrations from your Infallible Imams have no value for you. I was certain that it would have sufficed - but alas :frowning:

  2. I have given you references from Sunni sources – not to convince you as understandably it would have no effect on you but just to reinforce references from Shia sources but alas :frowning:

  3. I have given you reference from well-known Shia Site Islam.org where Shia Scholar has very grudgingly accepted that fact that Hz. Umar (ra) had married Lady Umm Kulthum bint Ali (ra)! but alas :frowning:

You asked for more from Sunni sources – So I think the following two would suffice.

I was informed by Anas ibn ‘Iyad al-Laythi, who reports on the authority of Jafar ibn Muhammad [as-Sadiq], and he from his father [Muhammad al-Baqir] that—Umar ibn al-Khattab asked Ali ibn Abi Talib for the hand of Umm Kulthoom in marriage. Ali said, “I had kept my daughters for the sons of Jafar.” Umar said, “Marry her to me, O Abul Hasan, for by Allah,there is no man on the face of the earth who seeks to achieve through her good companionship that which I seek to achieve.” Ali said, “I have done so.”

Then Umar came to the Muhajirun between the grave [of Rasool-Allah] and the pulpit. They—Ali, Uthman, Zubayr, Talhah and Abd ar-Rahman—used to sit there, and whenever a matter used to arrive from the frontiers, Umar used to come to them there and consult with them. He came to them and said, “Congratulate me.” They congratulated him, and asked, “With whom are we congratulating you, O Amir al-Mu’minin?” He replied, “With the daughter of Ali ibn Abi Talib.”

(source: Ibn Sa‘d in his work “at-Tabaqat al-Kubra”, vol.8, p.338, ed. Muhammad ‘Ab al-Qadir ‘Ata, “Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah”, Beirut 1990)

Biography Ibn Sa‘d

Ibn Sa’d was born in the year 168AH/784CE)[3] and died in 230AH/845CE.[3] He was a Sunni Muslim scholar of Islam and an Arabian biographer, received his training in the tradition from Al-Waqidi and other celebrated teachers. He lived for the most part in Baghdad, and had the reputation of being both trustworthy and accurate in his writings, which, in consequence, were much used by later writers.
Ibn Sa`d was from Basra, Iraq, [1] then lived in Baghdad in the 9th century. He is said to have died at the age of 62 in Baghdad. and was buried in the cemetery of the Syrian gate.

Ibn Qutayba said in al-Maarif (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiyya, 1987) p. 122:

“THE DAUGHTERS OF ALI IBN ABI TALIB: As for Zaynab the elder the daughter of Fatima, she was [married] with Abd Allah ibn Jafar and gave him children whom we already named. As for Umm Kulthum the elder, also the daughter of Fatima, she was [married] with Umar ibn al-Khattab and gave him children we also already named. When Umar was killed Muhammad ibn Jafar ibn Abi Talib married her. He died before her then Awn ibn Jafar ibn Abi Talib married her and she died before him. The rest of Ali's daughters were married off to the sons of Aqil and the sons of al-Abbas except Umm al-Hasan -- she was married to Jada ibn Hubayra al-Makhzumi – and except Fatima – she was married to Sa`id ibn al-Aswad of Banu al-Harith ibn Asad.”

The same Ibn Qutayba also says in the same book (p. 107):

“THE CHILDREN OF UMAR IBN AL-KHATTAB FROM HIS BLOOD AND THEIR DESCENDENTS: .... also Fatima and Zayd, their mother being Umm Kulthum the daughter of Ali ibn Abi Talib from his union with Fatima the daughter of the Messenger of Allah upon him blessings and peace. It is also said that Umm Kulthum’s daughter from `Umar was named Ruqayya…”

Ibn Qutaybah (828 – 885 CE / 213 – 276 AH) was a renowned Islamic scholar of Persian origin.

I’m glad and have noticed that you are keeping this debate very civil and you must appreciate that
on my part I’m doing the same. I’m sure you must be aware that there are references in Shia literature regarding to this very topic (marriage of Hz. Umm Kulthum with Hz. Umar (may Allah be pleased with them both) which shows Imam using very inappropriate language. So let’s leave those bits out. Once again I appreciate your stance.

I feel that I have been dragged back into the ‘fray’ I have said enough and I don’t have luxury of time on hand.

Please I hope that now you won’t demand that I provide the Nikah document or the name of the witnesses to the marriage contract or how many camels were slaughtered to celebrate the momentous occasion. I won’t be able to. Let’s leave it to the viewers here to make up their own minds reading all the material provided by all the participants.

But where is originator of this thread???

48

Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

LOL

Thanks for waking up.

The originator is probably laughing like many others reading this thread.

Someone throws a bone and we run to get it. :smiley:

Isn’t it obvious the topic is inflammatory, controversial and nothing is really conclusive or important there to discuss? :smack:

It is such a shame that threads after threads people show same attitude. Never gonna learn shall we?

49

Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Again, yo have tactfully escpated the main point of my post, so tihs is the last tmie I am requesting you to enlighten us with Sunni reports which mention the circumstances of the proposal of the alleged marriage, if it is still not posted by you, then I will be forced to do it.

PS: For whatever you have posted from Shia sources, that requires a separate debate which is quite lengthy, so I am keeping myself restrained at the above mentioned thing for the time being.