What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Jis Jis ka main moula us us ka Ali moula.

I guess you never heard of that. Following clip has some sunni reference for this. Please enlighten yourself.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Islamically speaking, there is no relationship. Your stepmothers father will never be your grandfather. So if Hz. Umar's daughter was married to Hz. Mohammad (PBUH) and thereby Hz. Fatma's stepmother, it doesnt make Hz. Umar the grandfather of Hz. Fatma's children. Common sense. All these relationships are duniyavi, they have no meaning in Islam. Just like if your mother remarried a man with already daughter from a previous marriage, it would make his daughter your stepsister, but in Islam you can marry her.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

I started with asking a question and didnt say islam doesnt allow such marriage becoz i didnt think islam possibly wud appreciate such incompatible marriage. However i am surprised to know Islam allows step siblings to marry.

Now ask urself if ur mom leaves ur dad today and marries a guy in two months who has a son.... wud u marry him ?

You shld also notice the rishta between umar and daughter of Mola Ali a.s becoz it shows huge age difference, but i guess its okay for u to ignore age since Prophet s.a.w according to ur history married Aisha when she was 6.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

[quote="aqeel123, post:860, topic:233780"]

I started with asking a question and didnt say islam doesnt allow such marriage becoz i didnt think islam possibly wud appreciate such incompatible marriage. However i am surprised to know Islam allows step siblings to marry.

**1: Now ask urself if ur mom leaves ur dad today and marries a guy in two months who has a son.... wud u marry him ?

2: You shld also notice the rishta between umar and daughter of Mola Ali a.s becoz it shows huge age difference, but i guess its okay for u to ignore age since Prophet s.a.w according to ur history married Aisha when she was 6./**QUOTE]

1: No need to get personal about what I would do in todays world or not. It is completely a personal choice, I dont see anything wrong with it as long as Islam doesnt prohibite it. Any one who is not mehram to you is eligiable for a marriage, if thats too hard for you to swallow, I guess thats your problem.

2: I am sorry to burst your bubble here, but I am pretty sure the Prophet (PBUH) wasnt the only one to marry looking apart from the age difference. It was and to be honest is still a custom among arabs to marry girls much younger than themselves. So no, you can not just bring in age difference from 1400 years ago and make it an issue and beside it was not what you asked in your question.

3: I still dont get theaim with this thread.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

foster brothers and sisters are unlawful to marry

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

I am still waiting for you to reply to my post.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

I dont know if it was directed at me?

However, I am aware of the fact that foster brothers and sisters cannot marry. I was not talking about foster siblings (who suck on the same mother), but step-siblings (with different set of parents)

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

mere shia bhaio, there is no point in arguing with these people. we got our Islam from Prophet and His Family (like Prophet pbuh&up wanted us to) and they got theirs from their 4 imams. there is really no point discussing history. Obviously Imam Ali a.s. never married any of his daughters to Umar. History surely tells us how he behaved against Imam Ali a.s. after Prophet left.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Haey O Allah, u r not bursting my bubbles dear neither am i getting personal. You are getting offended coz i am kinda putting u in a situation where u r stuck with agreeing to a wiered condtion.

If u dont respect anyone else Aihsa, Umar or Ahleybait a.s. Atleast Respect ur Prophet s.a.w and dont blame him of Child abuse. You dont have necessarily believe everything in shahi Bukhari. You wont be asked in ur grave about any book but Quran.

I kind of Agree with sheraz here.... Or one thing we can do together is get all the ahadith together abt Hazrat ume kulsoom a.s from sunni text and see if events of her life according to ahadith fall together.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

1: I think you are again reading what you want to believe. Nor am I finding the situation weird or anything, like I said its a personal choice and when Islam doesnt prohibite it, I dont disagree with it. You bringing my family into it is getting personal, so back off a little, will ya.

2: Astragfirullah! I have lots of respect for Hazrat Umar, Aisha and the Ahley Bait UNLIKE YOU and the utmost respect for my Prophet (PBUH), AGAIN YOU STARTEDE THE GETTING PERSONAL BUISNESS! Where I am accussing the Prophet for child abuse? I think you stop your brain from overworking, okay, maybe then you will see my point. What I am starting is purely the fact that marrying a young girl was nothing to look down upon or an issue. I dont see how you go from that to child abuse and God knows what? Allah hi reham kare tum par.

And no I wasnt offended before, but I'm def. now.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

well i think u got taste of ur own medicine here,

If u respected either Umar or Bibi Ume-Kulsoom or Mola Ali a.s u wudnt believe any of em will agree to such marriage in such a way:

And if u repected Prophet s.a.w u wud reject idea of marrying a 6 yr old and wudnt beleive it just coz its given in HOLY SAHIH BUKHARI

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Thanks BOY-NICE - My apologies - I stand corrected - It is Not is Shia book.

It is NOT a hadith book but of history and it’s is not a very prominent book as you claim.

I didn’t like at text of the narrations and so my reaction.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

It is very understandable for the Shia to accept that Hz. Ali (ra) married off his daughter Hz. Umm Kulthum (ra) with Hz. Umar (ra).

But they have narrations within their hadith literature and directly attributed to their Infallible Imams confirming that this marriage did take place and is undeniable fact of history.

Few Hadith from Shia sources

محمد بن أبي عمير، عن هشام بن سالم، عن أبي عبدالله (ع) قال: لما خطب إليه قال له أمير المؤمنين: إنها صبية قال: فلقى العباس فقال له: مالي أبي بأس؟ قال: وماذاك؟ قال: خطبت إلى ابن اخيك فردني أما والله لاعورن زمزم(4) ولا أدع لكم مكرمة إلا هدمتهاو لاقيمن عليه شاهدين بأنه سرق ولاقطعن يمينه فأتاه العباس فأخبره وسأله أن يجعل الامر إليه فجعله إليه

Translation: Muhammad ibn Abi Umayr—Hisham ibn Salim, who narrates that—Imam Jafar as-Sadiq said:

“When [Umar] proposed to Amir al-Mu’minin, he said, ‘She is a child.’ Then he [Umar] met Abbas and asked him, ‘What is wrong with me? Is there a problem with me?’ Abbas asked, ‘Why?’ Umar replied, ‘I asked your nephew for his daughter’s hand in marriage, and he rejected me. Oh, I swear by Allah, I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honor that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand.’ Abbas thereupon came to Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied.” (narrated in Furoo al-Kafi, vol.6, p.117)

  1. (10902 1) حميد بن زياد، عن ابن سماعة، عن محمد بن زياد، عن عبدالله بن سنان، ومعاوية ابن عمار، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: سألته عن المرأة المتوفى عنها زوجها أتعتد في بيتها أو حيث شاءت؟ قال: بل حيث شاءت، إن عليا عليه السلام لما توفي عمر أتى أم كلثوم فانطلق بها إلى بيته

Translation: Humayd ibn Ziyad—Ibn Sama‘ah—Muhammad ibn Ziyad—Abdullah ibn Sinan—Muawiyyah ibn ‘Ammar—Imam Jafar as-Sadiq:

“I asked him about a woman whose husband died: ‘Should she spend her ‘iddah in her house, or where she wants to?’ He [the Imam] replied, ‘Where she wants to. When Umar died, Ali came and took Umm Kulthoom to his house.’ (narrated in Furoo al-Kafi, vol.6, p.117)

Umar married Um kulthoom and they had a son named zayd bin Umar:

“Tadheeb al-Ahkam” (Vol.2, p.380) in Chapter “Meeras”:

“Imam Jafar as-Sadiq (as) said: ‘Umm Kulthoom bint Ali and her son Zayd bin Umar both died at the same time. It was not possible to ascertain who had died first. They did not inherit from one another and their funeral prayers were read at the same time.”

I was informed by Anas ibn ‘Iyad al-Laythi, who reports on the authority of Jafar ibn Muhammad [as-Sadiq], and he from his father [Muhammad al-Baqir] that—

Umar ibn al-Khattab asked Ali ibn Abi Talib for the hand of Umm Kulthoom in marriage. Ali said, “I had kept my daughters for the sons of Jafar.” Umar said, “Marry her to me, O Abul Hasan, for by Allah,there is no man on the face of the earth who seeks to achieve through her good companionship that which I seek to achieve.” Ali said, “I have done so.”

Then Umar came to the Muhajirun between the grave [of Rasool-Allah] and the pulpit. They—Ali, Uthman, Zubayr, Talhah and Abd ar-Rahman—used to sit there, and whenever a matter used to arrive from the frontiers, Umar used to come to them there and consult with them. He came to them and said, “Congratulate me.” They congratulated him, and asked, “With whom are we congratulating you, O Amir al-Mu’minin?” He replied, “With the daughter of Ali ibn Abi Talib.”

(source: Ibn Sa‘d in his work “at-Tabaqat al-Kubra”, vol.8, p.338, ed. Muhammad ‘Ab al-Qadir ‘Ata, “Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah”, Beirut 1990)

The following is from Shia Site Islam.org - A question has been put to a Shia scholar and he has more guts than our Shia brothers here to admit to fact that the marriage take place.

QUESTIONS:

Comment: Some Sunni and Shii people say how could Ali(s) stay silent to a dhulm like the one done to him by Usurping the Prophet’s (sa) wishes of him becoming the leader. Also, if Ali (s) was against Omar he would not have let his daughter marry Omar’s Son or call one of his children by the name of Omar.

(1) Is the above paragraph made by the Sunni/Shii brothers TRUE?

ANSWER:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 

As to the issue of marriage I believe it is also wrong. But if anyone wants to use this kind of events against more basic idea he must know that first of all it was Omar himself who married Ali  and Fatemeh' (AS) daughter, Ume Kulsum. Secondly When Omar asked Imam's (AS) permission to marry her, Imam (AS) refused and said she is too young for marrying him. Omar swore " wa Allah-e I do not seek her for what you may think, I seek her because I heard the holy prophet (SA) saying 'get closer to me by being close to my family. I want to be closer to him by marrying his granddaughter." Whatever his true intentions were - perhaps a political gesture for the chilly political climate of the time when everybody knew that Ali (AS) did not let them to be present in the Salah to Fatemeh's (SA) body and her burial, or making confusion among the public and generation to come, or perhaps a call of conscience of guilt for what he has done to Fatemeh (SA)- Imam (AS) must have had good reasons for agreeing  to the marriagehttp://www.al-islam.org/Organizations/Aalimnetwork/msg00166.html

Few hadith from Sunni sources.

A narration reports: “ Abdullah ibn Umar lead nine combined funerals, this included the funeral of Hadhrath Umme Kalthum binte 'Ali. This was during the governorship of Sa’eed bin Aas. Hadhrath 'Ali’s daughter Umme Kalthum was married to Hadhrath Umar. Her funeral and that of her son were read at one and the same time. Participants in the funeral included Ibn Umar, Ibn Abbas, Abu Hurayra, Abu Saeed and Abu Qatadah. Ibn Umar lead the congregation - Sunan al-Sughra by Imam Al-Nasa’i Volume 1, Chapter Janaza, page 317

'Umar bin Al-Khattab distributed some garments amongst the women of Medina. One good garment remained, and one of those present with him said, “O chief of the believers! Give this garment to your wife, the (grand) daughter of Allah’s Apostle.” They meant Um Kalthum, the daughter of 'Ali. ‘Umar said, Um Salit has more right (to have it)." Um Salit was amongst those Ansari women who had given the pledge of allegiance to Allah’s Apostle.’ 'Umar said, “She (i.e. Um Salit) used to carry the water skins for us on the day of Uhud.” - Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 132

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

I meant you as in a general you.. but obviously you will see only what you wanna see. Beside, hum agar ab is baat pe aahi gayen hain, ke who gave who the medicin, so let me quote you bringing yourself into this debate ... before I brought my general "you" which you twisted

*What is the relationship between me and my stepmothers father? *

Kuch yaad aaya? You asked me the question yourself and I only gave you an example back, but of course wohi parho ke jo parhna chahte ho. It didnt suit you, so you just started getting personal.

You started this thread with one question, twisted it around and now you are after the Prophet and whoever he married. The Prophet (PBUH) married a lot of women to create allience and thereby spread Islam. But tumhari samajh se yeh shayed bahir ho.

Dont bother replying back, I'm not in mood for arguing with twisted people, who dont know themselves what they are saying or doing.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

^^ ahh do i really have to give justifications here ... You can use word "you" as general but when i use it its personal ? double standards ?

I do have a step mother and so i asked whats the relationship between me and her father.

Any guy would easily be offended if u marry his mom twice as en example.

My reply "1: Now ask urself if ur mom leaves ur dad today and marries a guy in two months who has a son.... wud u marry him ?" came AFTER your analyzation of "you" as general term. Since it is declared in general term, lets not get carried away. Topic here is different then what we r discussin here.

If u rnt in mood then try duck song, that will cheer u up.

Thanks for accepting Prophet s.a.w married WOMEN... 6 yrs old isnt considered one.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Again you are wrong in your perception that it is not a very prominent book while the fact is that only two books are prominent ones written on the biographies of Sahaba viz:

  1. Asdal Ghaba fi Ma'rifat al-Sahabah by Imam Ibn Atheer
  2. Al-Isaba fi Tameez al-Sahabah by Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani

As for your disliking of the text, you better face it dear, thats the way the alleged marriage is recorded in prominent Sunni works, you cannot reject any narration just because you dont like the content therein.

Once again I am shardmanny and also you Ibn Sadique to enlighten us with the Sunni narratins that are recorded in books regarding this alleged marriage instead of directly jumping on Shia narrations.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

Any of u shia bros have access of Furoo al kafi volume 6 ?
i have found first 4 volumes.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

furu al kafi comprised of 5 volumes as far as I know, I may be able to help if I know as to what exactly are you looking for.

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Re: What was the family relationship between Hazrat Umar and Hazrat ali ?

BOY-NICE Only if you had read my previous post (no.33) you would have noticed that I had given you Sunni references to the blessed wedding!

And for a good measure I had also given from Shia sources with narration from Imam Jaffar as-Sadiq (ra) - and mind you he is infallible for you!

And to make it more platable for you to swallow these hard facts I had given link to Shia website where Shia Scholar very grudgingly accepts the fact that this marriage is a historical fact!!!

But I understand your dilemma of accepting this fact. You will be forever in 'I don’t believe it ‘cos I don’t want to mode.’

And there is no cure for it. As the proverbial saying goes “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink”

Enough said by me on this thread.

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Thats what i thought and wikipedia says it has more than 8 volumes... The posts above by sadique bro includes 2 references from volume 6 of furro al-kafi. So i wanned to take look at it.