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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
^ Guys, please atleast try to act "educated". Whats the point of trading personal insults?
Stu, I see you conveniently ignored the point about prostitution. :)
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I am sorry but its not my fault some have to resort to personal insults when their arguments are countered. I replied in kind. My contribution to this thread is over.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
^ Guys, please atleast try to act "educated". Whats the point of trading personal insults?
Stu, I see you conveniently ignored the point about prostitution. :)
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Allow me Faisal, In the case of prostitution, it is illegal because there is legal tender being offered for services provided without any form of taxation being reported for income generated. Until we legislate that taxes must be collected for such activities like in Nevada then it would be legal. Hope that answers your question.
It is not a slippery slope argument, it is an argument that requires brain activity rather than citing anachronistic principles. Hope that helps.
You disappoint us. If it were just a simple matter of tax collection, all the cities and counties that are currently hurting for money in the present recession would jump at the opportunity and legalize prostitution. No. Thats not the case. American as a society, at some point decided that it is advantagous to consider moral element in law making, and since prostutution is considered a social ill, so it is out-lawed. Till last year, state of Texas had a law that disallowed sodomy. So much so that the matter reached the Supreme Court of US. So, moral considerations are always considered in law-making. With changing times you can reconsider the definition of what is and is not moral, but you don't take the consideration out of law making.
I wonder, does anybody believe that it's possible for someone who was gay to become straight? Remember the Guppy who would post pictures of his boyfriend in the image gallery?? Remember how around 6 months later, he was disgusted with himself for his past actions and came to fully embrace Islam? Who knows if he was being honest or not, but the point is he supposedly repented for his sins and wanted to become a good Muslim.
Would it have been better if he was killed instead of allowed the opportunity to repent?
Also, why limit it to homosexuals only? Isn't having pre-marital sex of any kind (homo or straight) also a major sin (note, usage of "sin" and not "crime") ?????
Khair, it is soooo funny how there are about 4 different threads on homosexuality that generate multiple pages of responses, yet such little interest in the Arab militia who are slaughtering black Muslims in Sudan. Why discuss that when there are homosexuals and "mod", "western", "confused" Muslims to badmouth?
:k:
What does The Book of Guidance Warn us about Ethnic Cleanisng? The systematic rape of black women to make an area Arab while torching their villages and torturing the people? How does a person’s personal sex life compare to these types of crimes?
Prostitution is illegal solely because prostitutes aren’t declaring their taxes ??? 
… “hello”, is anyone home ?? 
So if all prostitutes filled out their tax forms correctly everyone would welcome their immoral practices with open arms ?? … i seriously think you need help mate…
I understand your point faisal,. Maybe that is a stretch on my part. I guess in muslim countries it should be ok based on their moral values to kill homosexuals. I wonder if it would be ok to kill muslims in some countries if they wear burkhas because morally in those societies it is considered oppressive to women. I guess it comes down to what is moral in that particular place and if you live in a non-muslim society thean to equate homosexuality with a crime is not the right approach. But giving fiery sermons might be. I like that society. :k:
Faisal- I somewhat agree with my wise friend Matsui's rationale re prostitution. However, I also think that the world's oldest profession is kept illegal in most areas because it often accompanies and/or leads to more sinister crimes.
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*Originally posted by MehnazQ: *
Isn't having pre-marital sex of any kind (homo or straight) also a major sin (note, usage of "sin" and not "crime") ?????
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and I thought it's called "Zinaa bil Razaa" in Islamic Terminology and has the same penalty as for homosexuals in Islam.
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*Originally posted by Matsui: *
Allow me Faisal, In the case of prostitution, it is illegal because there is legal tender being offered for services provided without any form of taxation being reported for income generated. Until we legislate that taxes must be collected for such activities like in Nevada then it would be legal. Hope that answers your question.
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haha it is hardly about taxation. any gora asked about prostitution says its a moral matter, never have i heard about taxation. and feminists ive ask go on and on ad nauseum about women being abused in this society. im sure even the sainted president of the united states of america would say it was a moral matter
Sarah… Mats is right, it is about taxes. Have you heard of Taxali Gate area of Lahore? What he meant was that if it is regulated by State (as is the case in the Netherlands, and some other countries) then prostitute’s income gets taxed. It’s prohibition is enforced like any other activity that is illegal (such as gambling in the streets, or drinking alcohol in public places). In the US, it is not government’s business to legislate moral codes. That is left to the individuals.
Feminists are famous for not knowing crap about legal matters. To them it might be an issue related to one’s morality, but that can be applied to any number of things. Raping someone is immoral, killing someone is also immoral (may be not as immoral as honor killing someone)… sure every issue has a morality threshold, but that is not how laws are formulated.
no where in Quran does it say that a Muslim shud himself/herself stone someone to death if he/she is gay. Infact Allah asked the Prophet Himself to leave that place so Allah can give the punishment Himself. If God erased the whole population before , He can certainly punish the gays and lesbians of the world again today.
to madhu, matsy and everyone who "supports" homosexuality, how Okay/accepting would u be, if ur own sons/daughters come out and admit to be gay?
it just seems so easy to question or support or discuss this Thing when it isnt happening in ur own household, but when it hits home, it becomes a whole different issue.
Suroor, im sure they will accept them with open arms :)
and what about the ahaadeeth and the practice of sahaabaa kiraam?
Two small points in the line of context for your reasoning:
1- Hadhrat Lut :as: was not a ruler of Sodom but only a messenger and there was no sharia (law of land given to him) at that time.
2- Islamic Punishment can ONLY be executed by Islamic judiciary government not by individuals.
Suroor, If my child is gay, he/she is gay. God made them that way. I would love them like a child should be loved by their parents.
Re: What The Book of Guidance Categorically Warns us about Homo-Sexuality
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Re: What The Book of Guidance Categorically Warns us about Homo-Sexuality
one day if you have a child and he/she is gay, will you find it so easy to get rid of them like its nothing? to kill that child? do your innate feelings of parenting disappear all of a sudden?
inshallah, none of us will ever have to deal with something like that, but if we do, may Allah (swt) give us stregnth and guidance. i would pray for HIS help.
no one is saying its halal, i don't understand why people don't get that
and you guys keep talking about an Islamic ruling, ok, i can go with that, but who made you all an Islamic Judiciary?
It is also ridiculous to compare homosexuality to something like committing murder o rape
No one says crimes shouldn't be dealt with. It is SIN that we should allow Allah (swt) to deal with
Shirk is also one of the most heinous of sins...are you going to go around punishing every person who associates partners with Allah (swt)?
You guys can't even BEGIN to compare yourselves to Rasulullah (S) he dealt with things in a peaceful and just manner, he never encouraged rash ignorance. He spread his faith with peace and love.
Re: What The Book of Guidance Categorically Warns us about Homo-Sexuality
^
Here:
Rasoolulah:saw: said: Certainly the thing I fear most on my ummah is the (wicked) practice of the people of Loot. *(Tirmizi, Ahmad, Ibn Hajr Al-Haysami, Ad-Duri and Al-Aajuri) (Hadith Hasan) *
— Please, tell me how can I interpret this now?
Hadrat Ali bin Abi Taalib :razi: relates, **‘Whoever allows himself to be used sexually (by becoming a homosexual or sodomite), Allah Ta’ala will expel from him the (natural) desire for women.’ **
— I have no idea, it can be interpreted more than one ways?
Once Abul Aswad brought a letter which he showed to one of his students and said, ’ I bear witness that this letter was dictated by Ali bin Abi Taalib :razi: to Abul Aswad: When men (i.e. homosexuals) will sexually satisfy themselves with men and women (i.e. lesbians) with women, then earthquakes will occur, faces will become transformed and stones will rain down from the skies.’
— May be literal meaning of the above is just a metaphor? I will ponder over it to come up with my own opinion :insha:
Rasoolullah :saw: has also said **“May Allah curse him who does what the people of Loot :as: did.” ***(Ibn Hibbaan) *
— Now how can I twist and interpret it differently than the literal meaning?
He (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) has also said, **‘Lesbianism by women is adultery between them.’ ***(Tabraani) *
In Quran, Allah says:
**"And (We also sent) Loot (as a Messenger). ‘Behold, he said to his people, do you do what is shameful even though you see (that it is wrong)? Would you really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, you are a grossly ignorant people!’ **
**But his people gave no other answer but this: They said, ‘Drive out the followers of Loot from your city. These are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!’ **
**But We saved him and His family except his wife: We destined her to be of those who lagged behind. **
And We rained down on them a shower (of stones). And evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but failed to heed)." *(Surah an-Naml, 54-58) *
Allah in Quran questions again:
Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives Allah has created for you? But you are a people who transgress. *(Surah ash-Shu’raa: 165 &166) *
From the first aayah, we learn that these people had themselves admitted that the family of Loot (AS) who had Imaan (belief in Allah) was decent, chaste and morally pure. They also acknowledged that the family of Loot (AS) refrained from this filthy practice. They realised this since it is natural for every person to immediately recognise the pure way of life inspired by Allah Ta’ala when they see it and also to make out any type of unnatural and perverted behaviour.
In the Tafseer (commentary) of these verses it is mentioned that the people of Loot (AS) were practicing both homosexuality and lesbianism. When Allah decided to punish them, He commanded Jibraeel (AS) to lift the village of Loot (AS) to the extent that the angels of the first heaven (sky) could actually hear the barking of their dogs. Jibraeel then turned them over and dropped them from this tremendous height. Thereafter, Allah Ta’ala caused scorching hot stones to rain down upon them. This is how this nation ended up being an example for the rest of mankind until the Day of Qiyaamah.
Imaam Al-Aajuri has said, **‘Allah Ta’ala has informed you about the despicable act of homosexuality committed by the people of Loot (AS) and how He punished them by first snatching away their eyesight. Jibraeel (AS) was then instructed to uproot their cities with all the inhabitants until they were high up into the sky and then turn over their cities upon them. Thereafter they were pelted with stones of clay.’ Such was their punishment that not a single citizen or traveller could save himself from the stones and from being completely destroyed. **
It is said that they were four million in number. (Tafseer Ibn Katheer p.471 vol. 2)
Let us reflect! Why did Allah Ta’ala punish them so severely in such a manner that He had never punished any other nation before? Surely their sin must have been really serious for Allah Ta’ala to have punished and destroyed them in this way.
The punishment awaiting such people in the Hereafter has already been
explained, but what about their punishment in this world?
Since such type of behaviour was previously totally unknown to the Arab people, there is no record of any such incident having occurred during the time of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) or that he was faced with a case of this nature. However, it has been confirmed that Rasulullah
(sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said,
**‘Kill the one who sodomizes and the one to who lets it be done to him.’ **
*(Tirmizi) *
Sayyiduna Abu Bakr (RA) had passed such a ruling and Hadrat Ali (RA) was very severe in his ruling against such a crime. It is established that once Sayyiduna Khaalid bin Waleed (RA) found a man in the frontiers of Arabia marrying another man in the way a woman marries a man, so he wrote about it
to Abu Bakr (RA). When Abu Bakr (RA) consulted with the Sahaabah, Ali (RA) who was the severest in his condemnation of it said, ‘Only one out of the many nations had indulged in it and you all know how Allah Ta’ala had dealt with them. I feel that he should be destroyed by fire.’ So Abu Bakr (RA) wrote back to Sayyiduna Khaalid (RA) who then put the man to death by means of fire.
Ibn Qassaar and Ibn Taymiyyah (AR) have said: **All the Sahaabah (radhiallaahu anhum) were unanimous that he should be killed though some of them differed in the manner in which it should be done. **
Abu Bakr (RA) said that **he should be executed by being thrown from a great height. **
Another view of Hadrat Ali (RA) was that **a wall should be dropped upon him. **
Hadrat Ibn Abbaas, Ali, Jaabir bin Zaid, Abdullah bin Mamar, Imaam Zuhri and Imaam Maalik (radhiallaahu anhum) have said that** those who commit the evil deed of the people of Loot (AS) should be stoned to death, whether they be married or unmarried.** This is also one of the narrations of Imaams Ahmad, Shaafiee and Abu Sawr (AR).
Hadrat Ibn Abbaas (RA) was once asked about the punishment for the homosexual. He replied, **‘He should be taken to the top of the highest building in the town and thrown headlong from there. Then he should be pelted with stones.’ **
Jaabir bin Zaid used to say, ‘The prohibitive decree of the anus is far more serious than the prohibitive decree of the vagina.’ In other words, the prohibition against anal intercourse is far more severe than the prohibition against illegitimate sexual intercourse (with a woman).
Re: What The Book of Guidance Categorically Warns us about Homo-Sexuality
again, you are preaching something that everyone already knows
It is forbidden, it is haram, etc, etc etc WE KNOW!
we NEVER said it was acceptable
All these ayyats and hadeeths speak of how Allah (swt) will deal with it and how it is unfavorable, but no where do they say, oh you every single member of my ummah please judge and rule at your own discretion-i leave it up to you
Re: What The Book of Guidance Categorically Warns us about Homo-Sexuality
^
again u missed the ruling part and who can perform it?
read the whole thing please as u just saw some quotations and without reading assumed few things... had you read everything, you would not have been saying what u said.. believe u me :)