What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

[hanibal]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

non-muslims can spread their faiths freely to muslims without restrictions? nonmuslims don't have to pay jizya? not sure whether it's fair to nonmuslims too but definitely to all muslims.

Like i said there many myths about Shairah, one of them is about Jizya, what is Jizya, it is a TAX on non-muslims in a muslim state, this tax is emposed on those who are capable of paying it and not on every non-muslim.. on the same note Muslims have to Pay Zakat, which again is a sort of Tax which muslims pay have to the govt. Jaziya, Zakat, Ushr etc are part of taxation.

In the same muslim lands, if a non-muslim are not capable or do not earn enough to fall in the category to pay this tax called Jaziya, then still they are not thrown in jails or out of the country, it is responsibility of the state to provide him with the basics regardless to his religion or believe.

I hope it is cleared now, to summarize it, Jaziya is tax non-muslim pay and Zakat is the tax Muslim pays and i guess it is fair for the state to ask its citizen to pay certain tax on their possessions to run the affairs of the state and to provide under-privileged.

On spreading religion, Under Islamic Shariah, it is responsibility of Muslim State to provide infrastructure and create environment where non-muslims can practice their religion with comfort and peace of mind. This is all the Muslim govt is instructed under Shariah Law.

good to know, i'll research this. but Turkey runs entirely on shariah law? i wasn't aware of that. thanku

No, Modern Turkey was founded on Secular rule, the secularism was so strict that Muslims were not allowed to say prayers openly and/or read Quran in Arabic text. Anyway, with all those things, Turkeys economy was suffering throughout and it is from last 10 odd years since the Islamists have taken over and have introduced reforms..

On top of that, Shairah is not what Taliban of Afghanistan shown us, it is not measured with the size of beard or with the number of fasts one keep, it is all about Social Justice, and for some who thinks that personal freedom is prohibited under Islamic Shariah should read about the Shairah Jurisdiction...

[javedmiandad]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

On top of that, Shairah is not what Taliban of Afghanistan shown us, it is not measured with the size of beard or with the number of fasts one keep, it is all about Social Justice, and for some who thinks that personal freedom is prohibited under Islamic Shariah should read about the Shairah Jurisdiction...

good post, but the image of ignorant muslims holding ak47's and shouting is the image the secular mullahs like to portray all muslims as in the media because it suits their anti islam agenda.

[Dr.LuLworth]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

why isn't there an islamic country out there, plently of muslim majority countries though. the closest ones are iran and saudi . i've always wanted to know.

if it's a repeat thread, mods can delete this

as much as blind kids here will like to deny this, muslims are not a homogenous entity. even within the sunni sect there are atleast 7-9 sub sects. The barelvis in pakistan for example are different then the hanbalis. One would not let the other dominate, and they have to coexist, hence the washed out laws you see that are "islamic" in pakistan. kids here would like to tell you that this is not the case, when this essentially is the case all over the world.

plus there are other personal motives, business motives, criminal motives, greed etc. they are human beings and this has nothing to do with god or their respective view of islam.

[Nisha25]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

1. Stupidity.

2. A truly Islamic government is not possible as a good deal of stuff that we consider normal is not allowed in Islam.

explain your response in a short and sweet way please, too much to ask i know, especially your second response. what did you mean by "stuff that we consider normal" and that is not allowed in islam, so much could fit into that grouping. don't see what your definition of normal is.

Like i said there many myths about Shairah, one of them is about Jizya, what is Jizya, it is a TAX on non-muslims in a muslim state, this tax is emposed on those who are capable of paying it and not on every non-muslim.. on the same note Muslims have to Pay Zakat, which again is a sort of Tax which muslims pay have to the govt. Jaziya, Zakat, Ushr etc are part of taxation.

In the same muslim lands, if a non-muslim are not capable or do not earn enough to fall in the category to pay this tax called Jaziya, then still they are not thrown in jails or out of the country, it is responsibility of the state to provide him with the basics regardless to his religion or believe.

I hope it is cleared now, to summarize it, Jaziya is tax non-muslim pay and Zakat is the tax Muslim pays and i guess it is fair for the state to ask its citizen to pay certain tax on their possessions to run the affairs of the state and to provide under-privileged.

*On spreading religion, Under Islamic Shariah, it is responsibility of Muslim State to provide infrastructure and create environment where non-muslims can practice their religion with comfort and peace of mind. This is all the Muslim govt is instructed under Shariah Law. *

No, Modern Turkey was founded on Secular rule, the secularism was so strict that Muslims were not allowed to say prayers openly and/or read Quran in Arabic text. Anyway, with all those things, Turkeys economy was suffering throughout and it is from last 10 odd years since the Islamists have taken over and have introduced reforms..

On top of that, Shairah is not what Taliban of Afghanistan shown us, it is not measured with the size of beard or with the number of fasts one keep, it is all about Social Justice, and for some who thinks that personal freedom is prohibited under Islamic Shariah should read about the Shairah Jurisdiction...

yes the nonmuslim in me is smart enough to understand that the taliban doesn't speak for muslims or aren't the model muslims. give nonmuslims some credit.

the bold part here, so a christian or a hindu can hold preaching sessions of their religions to big crowds of people including muslims? like what christian missionaries do so they can get converts to their religion, the way it's allowed in secular countries.

[Nisha25]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

.

[hanibal]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

@Nisha25

yes the nonmuslim in me is smart enough to understand that the taliban doesn't speak for muslims or aren't the model muslims. give nonmuslims some credit.

the bold part here, so a christian or a hindu can hold preaching sessions of their religions to big crowds of people including muslims? like what christian missionaries do so they can get converts to their religion, the way it's allowed in secular countries.

In Islamic State, where Shairah is the law, the Non-Muslims can have their gathering in the the premises allocated to them, in that gathering anyone can go... Having gatherings in open, creating nuisance for others doesn't matter who does it is not acceptable.

So to answer your question, the Non-Muslims can use their praying places as medium to preach their religion, however if the true Shairah is imposed ( as being discussed in this thread) i doubt that anyone would like to go and admit that Allah have Son or there are many other gods who like to fight with each other...

One more thing i may add, if a religion allows you to build praying premises, provide monetary assistance in building such places of worship, then aren't they recognizing their right to live and their right to pray and providing them to preach within those premises?

On the same note, conspiracies against the state cannot be tolerated, be it in the mosque, in a temple or in a church, There Example from the Life of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) when the Mosque called Daraar/Zaraar was demolished because it was used for the conspiracy purposes.

[hareem01]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

I know there was one event in history when muslim khalif allowed non-muslims to do their prayer in a mosque. Let me find a reference.

[CM]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

@Nisha25

explain your response in a short and sweet way please, too much to ask i know, especially your second response. what did you mean by "stuff that we consider normal" and that is not allowed in islam, so much could fit into that grouping. don't see what your definition of normal is.

Stupidity in the sense that the nation state system is based on interest. Be it personal or national. That will always stop people from implementing a just system as per religion as it would limit their own power.

Normal in the sense that co-education would be banned. So would TV, Music and a bunch of other stuff due to the strict interpretation by our scholars.

[Nisha25]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

@hanibal

In Islamic State, where Shairah is the law, the Non-Muslims can have their gathering in the the premises allocated to them, in that gathering anyone can go... Having gatherings in open, creating nuisance for others doesn't matter who does it is not acceptable.

So to answer your question, the Non-Muslims can use their praying places as medium to preach their religion, however if the true Shairah is imposed ( as being discussed in this thread) i doubt that anyone would like to go and admit that Allah have Son or there are many other Gods who like to fight with each other...

One more thing i may add, if a religion allows you to build praying premises, provide monetary assistance in building such places of worship, then aren't they recognizing their right to live and their right to pray and providing them to preach within those premises?

On the same note, conspiracies against the state cannot be tolerated, be it in the mosque, in a temple or in a church, There Example from the Life of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) when the Mosque called Daraar/Zaraar was demolished because it was used for the conspiracy purposes.

i never said that nonmuslims aren't allowed to pray freely in their respective places of worship in an islamic state. btw, if a christian was to put a cross on the side of the crowded road and he starts praying to it in public, It would be ok right?

all i've been asking all along is can a nonmuslim try to convert a muslim to his/her religion. Or educate muslims on their religions because there is so much ignorance about other religions. like for example even you are ignorant on hinduism. just to let you know, people of abrahamic religions tend to see other religions from their own narrow abrahamic views, not really trying to understand other religions. it's not really many Gods, it's different manifestations of the same God, like a catholic friend of mine said "it's like the holy trinity, the father, the son, the holy spirit are all just the same God". i'm guessing he knows his religion(catholic sect) better than i do.

[Nisha25]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

@CM

Stupidity in the sense that the nation state system is based on interest. Be it personal or national. That will always stop people from implementing a just system as per religion as it would limit their own power.

Normal in the sense that co-education would be banned. So would TV, Music and a bunch of other stuff due to the strict interpretation by our scholars.

don't the scholars also differ in their interpretations of certain things too just like the scholars of other religions?

so when they implement this just system as per their religion whose interpretations of certain issues will be taken as law. that's the thing with religion sometimes for me, different scholars have different views on what the verses are really saying. i always thought as long as the tv shows, songs are about Allah it is allowed...well atleast that's what i was taught by a well knowing muslim, was he wrong? all these scholars are human so my worry is that they will have prejudices/biases/weaknesses like all human beings.

[hanibal]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

@Nisha25

i never said that nonmuslims aren't allowed to pray freely in their respective places of worship in an islamic state. btw, if a christian was to put a cross on the side of the crowded road and he starts praying to it in public, It would be ok right?

all i've been asking all along is can a nonmuslim try to convert a muslim to his/her religion. Or educate muslims on their religions because there is so much ignorance about other religions. like for example even you are ignorant on hinduism. just to let you know, people of abrahamic religions tend to see other religions from their own narrow abrahamic views, not really trying to understand other religions. it's not really many Gods, it's the same God manifesting itself in different forms, like a catholic friend of mine said "it's like the holy trinity, the father, the son, the holy spirit are all just the same God". i'm guessing he knows his religion(catholic sect) better than i do.

So what your point here? Religion as subject has been taught in older era, and that is how Scholars like Ghazali were able to answer the Greek Philosophy, I would not say that you are ignorant but would say that you should first study Hindu religion and its origin, how it was formed who were the true followers, from where they came to the land today we call India?? all this and much more would tell you about the religion of Brahmin and may be a hint or two about the Tales of Abrahimic religon.

This is not the topic or is it??? u need to decide what you need to discuss! religions or topic at hand???

[Nisha25]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

@hanibal

So what your point here? Religion as subject has been taught in older era, and that is how Scholars like Ghazali were able to answer the Greek Philosophy, I would not say that you are ignorant but would say that you should first study Hindu religion and its origin, how it was formed who were the true followers, from where they came to the land today we call India?? all this and much more would tell you about the religion of Brahmin and may be a hint or two about the Tales of Abrahimic religon.

This is not the topic or is it??? u need to decide what you need to discuss! religions or topic at hand???

urgh all i was doing was correcting that bit about many Gods that you said in your post, the flawed understanding of hinduism you have that's all. trying to show you that it's more complicated than how you said it.

i was on topic with that bit about nonmuslims being able to preach their religions to muslims in an islamic state. and on topic about whether a christian can put up a cross on a busy street and start praying to it in an islamic state. you didn't answer that.

so nonmuslims can try to convert a muslim out of islam by inviting them to their places of worship in an islamic state. no punishment to the muslim that converts out and for the nonmuslim for trying to convert him/her for that.......right? that's all i wanted to know

[hanibal]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

@Nisha25

i was on topic with that bit about nonmuslims being able to preach their religions to muslims in an islamic state. and on topic about whether a christian can put up a cross on a busy street and start praying to it in an islamic state. you didn't answer that.

so nonmuslims can try to convert a muslim out of islam by inviting them to their places of worship in an islamic state. no punishment to the muslim that converts out and for the nonmuslim for trying to convert him/her for that.......right? that's all i wanted to know

non-Muslims have their places of worship and yes they can be open to everyone, and priests there can show the true face of their religion to the people and then it is choice of people either to accept it or not... and no, as per Islamic shariah, if a muslim convert to any other religion, he is not subject to capital punishment as perceived by many....

Yes Public gathering in public places for preaching is not liked by Islam, as it create problems for other but if it is done in its place then any Christian, Hindu can have their Cross or Idol there and can try to attract people... and yes chances are that anyone might challenge him and then things turns into a debate which can turn into a heated argument....

[BindazChakkar]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

when are people going to wake up and realize this is the 21st century. Control by commands and fear don't work anymore. Regardless of what the source is, faith based laws won't succeed at gun point

[Himalaya]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

@Dr.LuLworth

as much as blind kids here will like to deny this, muslims are not a homogenous entity. even within the sunni sect there are atleast 7-9 sub sects. The barelvis in pakistan for example are different then the hanbalis. One would not let the other dominate, and they have to coexist, hence the washed out laws you see that are "islamic" in pakistan. kids here would like to tell you that this is not the case, when this essentially is the case all over the world.

plus there are other personal motives, business motives, criminal motives, greed etc. they are human beings and this has nothing to do with god or their respective view of islam.

The differences exist quite frankly because some of the sects deviate. The Quran and Hadith give clear guidelines and instructions. It appears as if very few follow what they are supposed to. The only way to get rid of the sects is education. When people can read and write they will be empowered and be able to read the truth. They will not be under the control of the Maulvis.

[Himalaya]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

why isn't there an islamic country out there, plently of muslim majority countries though. the closest ones are iran and saudi . i've always wanted to know.

if it's a repeat thread, mods can delete this

Iran and Saudi pick and choose Islamic Laws. They use Islamic Law to keep their grip on power.

Most Muslims do not ave a full understanding of what Islam is. The literacy rates are low. That makes them dependent upon Maulvis. These Maulvis have created a monopoly on Islamic knowledge. They have made Islam become hierarchical and institutionalized. It is all male dominated so first sufferer is the woman. I have seen "Muslims" bow to "Pirs" and their descendents. I have seen people worship graves. There is so much more but I will not go into that.

Then you have external influences. Most Muslim countries have been colonized by European countries at one time or another. Pakistan for example has a power structure modeled on the British. The british created a power structure that would be loyal and serve them long after they have gone. Our elite os western in attitude and in general wants a liberal country. The middle classes despise the elites yet when they get a chance become just like them.

The power structure in Pakistan is not Pro-Islamic but pro-Western. This is probably the same in all Muslim countries. You only have to look at the arms trade and you will see the subjects actually play an important role in the colonials economy even today. The last thing the colonials would want is a power structure that goes against their hegemony.

In Pakistan a lot of people do not understand Islam properly so they have a rigid view of it thanks to all the money used to finance Jihad. Their rigid view scares more balanced people.

[Raj_ind]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

If they strived to be islamic in every way, they would be slamic in every way. Muslim majority countries feel that they are islamic enough according to their own social, cultural and religious standards.

Now in hindu majority country, i hear many people want to adopt hindutva, why are they not doing it?

Those who U hear speak about adopting hindutva, are as ignorant about hindutva as U are. Unlike Islam, hindutva is not a complete Zabta E Hayat, or way of living, nor its a religion as many percieve it to be.

BTW the question arise how helpful hindus and christians will be to muslims on the day of judgement, when they will be hiding behind them pleading that because of hindus and christians they never adopted the Islamic shariyah.

Meanwhile my answer to the OP would be that muslims today have been outnumbered by munafiqeen, and minority finds it really tough to implement their islamic thoughts and laws on society. ALLAH knows better.

[Nisha25]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

^^i don't know why he brought up hindutva, for me RSS is an equivalent of talibaan, i didn't want to say it b/c i didn't feel like i would have an accurate understanding of it b/c i never lived in India.

[CM]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

@Nisha25

don't the scholars also differ in their interpretations of certain things too just like the scholars of other religions?

so when they implement this just system as per their religion whose interpretations of certain issues will be taken as law. that's the thing with religion sometimes for me, different scholars have different views on what the verses are really saying. i always thought as long as the tv shows, songs are about Allah it is allowed...well atleast that's what i was taught by a well knowing muslim, was he wrong? all these scholars are human so my worry is that they will have prejudices/biases/weaknesses like all human beings.

They differ on miniscule things. Drinking is haram. So is pork or pre-martial sex.

The muslim was an idiot. The logic used is that all pictures are haram. From paintings to the TV screen. Doesn't matter what the subject matter is or who uses it. Images are haram.

[Nisha25]

Re: What Stops Muslim countries from being totally and completely Islamic?

^i didn't say an image of Allah would be seen on the tv shows but stories teaching kids about islam and islamic songs. the reason that tv shows and songs of other kinds are haraam is b/c they move a human's concentration and attention away from Allah and leads them to think impure thoughts, wrong? I did not say anything about pictures or images of mohammad or allah being shown, that i know is wrong.

but when i was learning about islam on some issues the scholars' views did differ a bit. for example if i may, the topic about whether a muslim person can wish nonmuslims on their holidays and festivals, some say it's ok to wish b/c it promotes peace/harmony, some say that it's one of the greatest sins b/c it promotes a nonmuslims haraam and shirk activities and away from the true path, a muslim is actually congratulating them on their shirk activities so who's right? i'm asking you.

And you think anybody that doesn't agree with you is an idiot or stupid