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why not consider your country holy place it is where you were born
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Does it seem a good idea to you?
We Muslims do not make and cannot make anything holy according to our whims and fancies.
ajeeb bande ho, first you say you won’t waste your time arguing with me, and subsequently you take the time to type in this whole post! 
**
well, quite strange; Why do you see the blessed as referring to Bakkah…I’d rather think that ‘blessed’ refers to the House, and not to Bakkah
just a random translation of the many who translate it this way:
[3.96] Most surely the first house appointed for men is the one at Bekka, blessed and a guidance for the nations.
all translation ive come across put a comma or a colon after Bakkah, to indicate that what comes after it refers back to the House. And indeed, verse 97 continues on the House (and not Bakkah):
*[3.97] In it are clear signs, the standing place of Ibrahim, and whoever enters it shall be secure, and pilgrimage to the House is incumbent upon men for the sake of Allah, (upon) every one who is able to undertake the journey to it; and whoever disbelieves, then surely Allah is Self-sufficient, above any need of the worlds. *
anyway, to question remain unanswered:
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this cud only allow for Mekkah, what about Medina and Jerusalem?
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where exactly are the boudaries placed?
here again, you are drawing unreasonable conclusions: I have nowhere disrespected the Prophet…if you see that so, then it’s ur problem, but i haven’t disrespected him. Cuz for the same matter, i can say ur disrespecting the Prophet by thinking of certain places as being holy, whereas there is no such conclusive evidence…it’s just how u view this problem and u can think of the other disrespecting the prophet…so therefore this above statement of urs is false.
its all in your head.
very few kooks would consider the entire country of saudi arabia to be holy. most do think mecca and madina deserve to be held in reverence.
sentiment is intangible. it isnt measured in meters. if you dont feel it dont attempt to reason yourself into it.
and yes, if the prophet's CO2 had been preserved, there probably would have been some who would've prized it. just as people prize a strand of his hair, his cloak, Hazrat Ibrahim/Ali's footprints.
theres very little logical reason to keep the Quran properly and not fling it about as i said on the other thread. mere words on paper from a non-muslims context, possibly worse. words on paper printed by a printing press distanced from revelation by a space of 1500 years.
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*Originally posted by NeSCio: *
prophet.....so therefore this above statement of urs is false.
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^^ whatever helps you sleep at night.
Allah Hafiz.
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*Originally posted by ravage: *
its all in your head.
very few kooks would consider the entire country of saudi arabia to be holy. most do think mecca and madina deserve to be held in reverence.
sentiment is intangible. it isnt measured in meters. if you dont feel it dont attempt to reason yourself into it.
and yes, if the prophet's CO2 had been preserved, there probably would have been some who would've prized it. just as people prize a strand of his hair, his cloak, Hazrat Ibrahim/Ali's footprints.
theres very little logical reason to keep the Quran properly and not fling it about as i said on the other thread. mere words on paper from a non-muslims context, possibly worse. words on paper printed by a printing press distanced from revelation by a space of 1500 years.
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Well put. JazzakAllah
-Salman
Re: Re: What makes a Holy place Holy???
very well said :k:
Have to agree with Lajawab and Ibn Sadique on this one. There is a significance and command as to what is deemed Divine and Holy.
I thought Nes was Muslim.
Coco: well, just saying that isn't enough...can you bring about some evidence? can you also clearly define the boundaries of things? can you define a closed and definite spacetime on what is Holy and what not?
MQ: yes, I am :~)
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*Originally posted by NeSCio: *
Coco: well, just saying that isn't enough...can you bring about some evidence? can you also clearly define the boundaries of things? can you define a closed and definite spacetime on what is Holy and what not?
MQ: yes, I am :~)
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Masha-Allah good.Umm so then perhaps you didnt read this thread carefully?
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*Originally posted by NeSCio: *
Coco: well, just saying that isn't enough...can you bring about some evidence? can you also clearly define the boundaries of things? can you define a closed and definite spacetime on what is Holy and what not?
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Ok, lemme come at you from another angle. You believe in God don't you. There is a divine power. I'll go as far as to assume that you believe in Allah and monothiesm and Islam, correct? How do you know Allah is there but where? Its not enough, never enough our intellect to grasp around. We leave it to faith. Right? Same goes for every other religion. If you believe, you will be judged that way. Ok, I went off on a tangent for a bit but it has some relation to do with your logic driven questions.
You ask what makes a place holy? You tell me, what makes your family, a family? A few gene strings that match? Not enough. Or that first sense of achievement so sentimental. Or that day when you were born so significant. Do you see a pattern here? We've been given rather blessed with the tool of time, history and associating those events as directed or how we felt. Why do they have three points to stone down the devil? Why not else where? Because those were the points a Prophet and his child were driven by the devil and they successfully overcame that test.
The gentlemen above failed to explain to you that the Holy places are of significance and history where Islam budded and blossomed. Thats the only way we can understand. Actually wait a sec, there is a mosque before we use to turn in the direction of and were commanded by Allah to start praying in the direction of the Qibla. That mosque (not sure of its name) is Holy as well. We as humans hold significance to places that give them a higher status than a house down the street. Moreover, it was the command of God. Thats what made it Holy. If Islam wasn't established, We would be Jews going to Jerusalem since that would've been the last command of God. Much like any other religion, we have historical places too which have been deemed divine.
You're asking for boundaries? Ok, here is another idea. Why are people so adamant at celebrating their birthdays on a certain date? Why create boundaries to it and limit it to that day? Same way we've created boundaries to what places have been deemed Holy.
Its been deemed holy for a few reasons in my limited knowledge, all of us follow and flow in one direction and one God. There is no scientific justification to it that we can encompass our minds around. Also, bare in mind that there is another Qibla on the 7th sky. How do we know? We don't, we've just taken His word for it. Thats Faith compadre.
We cannot move it because it would take the essence of the place away where EVERYONE unites. Sure, you would say, we can all unite on Mars if we wanted. But is that really what Allah has decreed? I would think not.
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*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
Masha-Allah good.Umm so then perhaps you didnt read this thread carefully?
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he has doubts in the authenticity of ahaadeeth as per what he says and as per how he criticizes Saheeh Bukhari and other books thus not beleiving in the contents of those books (the only source of hadith) and therefore, does deny ahaadeeth.. so the ahaadeeth references are invalid infront of him :~)
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*Originally posted by Anwaar Qureshi: *
he has doubts in the authenticity of ahaadeeth as per what he says and as per how he criticizes Saheeh Bukhari and other books thus not beleiving in the contents of those books (the only source of hadith) and therefore, does deny ahaadeeth.. so the ahaadeeth references are invalid infront of him :~)
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And anwaar bhai besides everything.. Jab ap pathar saye sir maro gaye tou apka sir he poothaye ga... and by the way... check your pm
-Salman
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by COCONUT
Ok, lemme come at you from another angle. You believe in God don't you. There is a divine power. I'll go as far as to assume that you believe in Allah and monothiesm and Islam, correct?
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yes, i do. Yes I certainly believe in Allah and Islam.
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How do you know Allah is there but where? Its not enough, never enough our intellect to grasp around. We leave it to faith. Right?
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there are several reasons for me to be convinced that Allah exists (I deliberately did not use the word ‘believe’ cuz that means ‘thinking that something is the case without knowing it for sure’.......and therefore i don’t say 'i believe' but i say 'I am convinced')
Firstly, if you look at the universe physically, and its vastness, its secrets, its origin,....one cannot do else but come to the conclusion that there has to be a power (which is outside our grasp) that has created this all! This is a whole seperate discussion, but in short i presented it here.
Secondly, if you look at all theories, religions, languages, communities... .everywhere, you will see that there are certain dogmas, certain axioma, based on which the rest is ‘derived’ from. Like in maths, you will see Euclid tried to write down all axioma which would cover all number theory, Einstein proposed 2 dogmas on which his theories are built on etc etc. So too in religion, and for me the only dogma needed to base the world on would be: “Allah is one” (basically this is the dogma which the Prophets presented to us). Based on this one would be able to derive the things needed to succeed in life, in this world, in the next world etc etc etc. The key thing remains that the things you derive should be derivable without further assumptions which you cannot prove. But time and again I come to the conclusion that contemporary Islam uses such assumptions for which I cannot find inconclusive evidence. And that’s where I put my question mark. If people see that question mark as an outright rejection then it’s their problem. I’ve put the question mark, and I will NEITHER REJECT NOR ACCEPT it without conclusive evidence: e.g. when there aren’t any loopholes in it anymore. And the crux to finding such loopholes is to create –what other people would see as- rediculous scenarios, but it is THESE scenarios which can decide between being waterproof or full of holes!
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You ask what makes a place holy? You tell me, what makes your family, a family? A few gene strings that match? Not enough. Or that first sense of achievement so sentimental. Or that day when you were born so significant. Do you see a pattern here?
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You put a very valid quesiton here. One which could provide some insight into what im trying to convey: what makes a family a family? Right! The subjective feelings you get when you are near certain individuals! NOTHING ABSOLUTE ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF FAMILY! And the same can be said about the things which i put a question mark with and which other see as something devinely absolute! My case is nothing more than to show/speculate that these assumed absolute things are mere subjective statements which have been seen as absolute over the course of years. And because they are subjective they are also subject to individual variation (like you might see your second-degree relatives as ‘family’ whereas I would only see my first degree!) Like for what is Holy???? It is something subjective pur sang to decide for yourself what is holy and what not......and as such it is nothing absolute and there will be inter-indiviual variation! And that, my friend, is the point i’m trying to bring across: what makes something holy? It is mere subjective speculation which will see someone seeing a certain place as Holy or not. Therefore one cannot say that certain places are absolutely Holy and others are not.
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The gentlemen above failed to explain to you that the Holy places are of significance and history where Islam budded and blossomed. Thats the only way we can understand. Actually wait a sec, there is a mosque before we use to turn in the direction of and were commanded by Allah to start praying in the direction of the Qibla. That mosque (not sure of its name) is Holy as well. We as humans hold significance to places that give them a higher status than a house down the street. Moreover, it was the command of God. Thats what made it Holy. If Islam wasn't established, We would be Jews going to Jerusalem since that would've been the last command of God. Much like any other religion, we have historical places too which have been deemed divine.
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Here again, i can say it is pure subjective what one sees as Holy. Secondly, you are mixing up Holy structures with Holy places. As i already said, I too, see the Qibla as absolutely Holy (because it can be straightly derived from the first axiom). But then the question rises about the cities: they cannot be Holy in the same sense as the Qibla is: they can maximally be subjectively holy
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You're asking for boundaries? Ok, here is another idea. Why are people so adamant at celebrating their birthdays on a certain date? Why create boundaries to it and limit it to that day? Same way we've created boundaries to what places have been deemed Holy.
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exactly! And as such I find the Bday thing completely rediculous. It is completely subjective. There is no such thing as absolute Time.
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But then the question rises about the cities: they cannot be Holy in the same sense as the Qibla is: they can maximally be subjectively holy
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I see where you are coming from. I'll try to answer as best as I can. Subjectively holy eh? Do you see any other place mentioned in the Book/Quran? The cities have been subjected by God's word. If He says, Yathrib and Mecca, that means it is those places that make them Holy which have historical significance over the years that have passed. Its not just the mosque and Qibla. Its the surrounding area of the city that holds within it true value.
There are historical events that go into play which make the place what it is today. Sure, you can say it was the subject of those events thats why its now subjectively Holy but not sacred because if it were then it wouldn't be protected like Masjid Al-haraam or the mosque in Medina with a city boundary. A line of defense, a border already mentioned in the Book and we just made those boundaries very visible.
The cities hold valuable sacred places and are mentioned in the Book hence have been deemed Holy not by individual choice but by His word.
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Like for what is Holy???? It is something subjective pur sang to decide for yourself what is holy and what not
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What more do you need than the word of God?
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*Originally posted by CocoNut: *
What more do you need than the word of God?
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his own words.