Re: What Islamic Ummah?
I think we are capable of discussing multiple issues at the same time. As a secularist, you can’t just sit on your bum waiting for all other issues to get solved first.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
do we in Pakistan understand that by promoting the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”, we inadvertently support an ecosystem which will promote religious intolerance and religious terrorism … because once you decide that our country is Islamic, the next question is which Islam? the following step will be a fight between different sects to implement their version of Islam and then you see mullahs trying to gain power on the pretext of “lets Islamize the country”. if they can’t win seats in parliament, they will try to win it in streets by intoxicating their madrassas.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
I think in a country like pakistan state should take the responsibility of handling sensitive issues. Like even though one can criticize companions of prophet s.a.w and remain Muslim but state should enforce a narrative that no one can abuse the companions, for the sake of peace. Obviously the law and order should also be hard on who take law into hands. Secularism cannot solve these problems.
State involvement in handling conflicting issues is actully a must thing for country like Pakistan where four major sects are having good number followers.
As someone pointed other major issue is racism. I believe that Pakistan culturally one unit would have progressed a lot.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
Majority of Pskistani people lack education and are too backward to understand this. Their only source of education is Molvis who tell them all kinds of lies. There is no way you can make them understand these things.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
The concept of greater islamic umma is just a farce. however, that fact can not be made a basis to declare that the country should become ‘secular’ and that will somehow eliminate all evils magically. Its as naive as the proponents of ‘Islamic system’ who say that bringing shariat will solve all problems.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
What do you mean exactly by ‘Islamic constitution’??? Do you mean ‘shariah constitution’??? Is yes, who is forcing givernment to have it? Me? Common people of Pakistan??? No they are not. It is some politically driven sponsored local groups who force government to inpose shariah law.
The obly thing I sgree with in your post that the word ‘Islamic’ should be taken off but not because of the reasons you stated. My reason to suggest that word should be removed is because I did not see much of Islam in the lives of people living in Pakistan.
Yes, as an honest student of Islam, I believe and will always believe that Islam really is a complete way of life and if followed correctly with its soul with correct interpretation of the verses, it really can bring not only to the muslim follower but to the entire humanity. That is a fact. Do whatever but you cant change that fact. People who have taken out the time to study the religion in depth with sincerity, with a neutral mind, they know it is a fact regardless of what the ignorant ones believe in. What the ignorant ones claim and believe in cannot change the fact that Islam really is a source of peace and blessings for the entire humanity if followed in true spirit. I am not talking about following the madrassah taught sponsored imposter Islam. I am talking about following the religion that was sent down before it was started being misused by world 's powerful mafias to get political edge over others.
The world believes Pakistan to be a predominantly muslim country. Regardless of the fact that the hearts of those muslims are devoided of anything Islamic but the fact that it is a predominantly Islamic country does not change that. What percentages of the minorities that you suggest the country must have a president and a PM for each minority? Where in the world have youbseen that happening? Preseident or PM of a country appointed from the minority? Are you for real? Putting myself in any minority’s shoes, I would go with my commonsense majority followers of any religion should have a PM / preseident from the religion of their choice. If majority population is muslim, naturally they would want a muslim to lead them. Similarly if any minority religion was actually majority and not minority, they should have their say in who they want as a PM/President. Im surprised I have to explain commonsense here. Are you really bothered about the issues faced by Pakistan ir these suggestions just a mean of time pass for you? Like seriously?
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
Tell me again why can an Islamic government not be a welfare state when that is what Islamic state is supposed to be? Or more importantly tell me why you and the ilk dont want to see an Islamic welfare state? Why a state MUST become secular or abandone any religion in order to become a welfare state? Not making sense to me.
All the issues with laws you have, have to do with incorrect understanding of Islam. That is why the focus of those incharge of state affairs must be to educate people with actual knowledge of Islam. Turning the state secular is least of the issues faced by state currently. Tell me how abondoning the religion is going to improve the lives of common people or magically turn the state into a welfare state??? If anything, it is going to create more big and small problems than offer any solutions. Need is to cleanse and purify the people living there, teach them good with the wualities of religion that are always ignored by the mainstream islamic scholars, not to tell them that religion is not important so if there have any bit of fear in their hearts and act good, they lose that too. Very very flawed and immature suggestion. Would do nothing for the common people. How do you think state turning secular is going to majorly improvise the current economic state, life standard, power shortage, create jobs, improve healthcare sector and fix all the problems faces by Pakistan currently? Tell me if a secular state is going to have thw same challenges as a muslim state in improving the lives of commo people then who are you suggesting to turn the state secular for? Whose interest is that going to serve???
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
Completely agree with that. Both the sides are represented by impractical, immature, extremist minded small groups, mostly sponsored. Both sides driven by strong revolutionary ideas and sponsored and misused by outsiders who want to drown the country with nonending ‘revolutions’ one after another benefitting no one, just drowing and wasting resources that could be used to improve quality of life, education (provide correct Islamic knowledge), healthcare, infrastructure and alot more that those resources could be spent on instead. Stupid ideas, stupid impractical followers.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
As far as I know, a mulim is someone with a belief that the prophethood ended with Mohammed PBUH. He was the last of the messengers of God & there are no more prophet to come. So how can the people who believe in the coming one more prophet be called muslims??? Ahmedis believe there is one more prophet to come. Mirza or someone else I dont know but that belief is in complete contrast with all the muslim sectors & no old and new scholars of Islam believe there is another prophet to come. So it is ahmedis themselves who dragged them out of Islam by believing in something that is not an Islamic belief. Nobody throw them out. They themselves said they wanted to go with that belief completely in contrast with the word of Quran and the last prophet Mohammed.
The idea that minorities should have their own PM/Presidents or name Pakistan Christian/Hindu/Sikh republic of Pakistan if the demand. I dont know whether to laugh or be concerned about the poster’s IQ.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
dear, show me one post where i said that secularism will solve all the problems of Pakistan. then why make such implications? why would secularism solve all the problems?
but yes, you need to set the basic right. you need to know what is the fabric of your society and constitution because it will impact the way people will behave, the way policies will set up . it is a conceptual discussion not tactical.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
I want everyone to read these few sentences. just notice the embedded arrogance (albeit unintentional), moral policemen-ship and authoritative tone. that is the source of the problem. it is hard for the majority of Pakistanis (and Muslims around the globe) to understand that followers of other regions also adore their religions and see it as a savior for humanity and by making such statements as above, you are being rude and plain arrogant. how I wish you live as a tiny muslim minority in a country where the majority gives you this lecture that their religion is the best one and that it shd be the way of life and then constitutionalize their religion. maybe you will understand the pain.
muslims are so brainwashed that it is hard for them to process that just like them, there are millions of Christians and jews who also study their religions in detail and come to the same conclusion that their religions are the best savior for humanity.
anyway, coming back to the point, no one has a problem if you believe in this notion that your religion is the best and is a complete way of life for you and for the entire humanity…more power to you but please don’t try to constitutionalize it. leave rest of humanity on its own. they dont need it. they are fine lol. Just do it in your personal capacity. don’t expect to enforce it on everyone. dont tell Hindus and Sikhs and Christians that you can’t be PM/President of Pakistan. dont have sharia courts even for Muslims and much more. leave state unbiased of any religion. As proven by the history, it is almost impossible to legislate morality anyway.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
If you decode my post as ‘arrogance’ then that is your embedded ignorance (albeit unintentional). What I stated is neither out of my admiration of my own religion nor any ‘barinwashing’ as you allege. Im not a madrassah product so keep your stupid assumtions with yourself. My beliefs are based on my research of the religions & based on complete honesty in recognizing the truth.
Where do you see me ‘forcing’ Islamic religion on anyone here or in real life??? When I say I follow true interpretation of the verses, it means exactly that. One of the well known verses of Quran, “There is no compulsion in religion” which is an admission of the fact that everyone finds console in their choice of religion despite me knowing that Islam really is a complete way of life and a source of peace and blessing to the entire humanity. Believing that does not give me a license to impose Islam on anyone else without their will. What I do and strive to do is create awareness and show by example whatever I have learn about Islam so far. I did not ‘enforce’ it on anyone in real life or on any other medium then why are you crying like a baby as if you have just encountered a daaesh agent with a gun in his hand telling you to recite kalimah or die??? You only continue to expose your ignorance more and more by falsly accusing that I imposing Islamic religion on others by force’. What are you basing those claims on??? Despite the facts of my research of religion which I stated above, where do you see me ‘enforcing’ Islam on others as you claimed???
On a second thought, I should not be surprised as the initial post clearly exposes a low IQ so the rest of the posts just confirming that.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
You edited your post to say that now you have a problem with my ‘authoritative tone’. That ‘authoritative tone’ is my personality. Nothing to do with Islam, other religions, my beliefs or my reaearch of religions. Now in the next post, you would be demanding muslims with authoritative tone or any other phsyical quality or body organs which you or your friends find unacceptable to ampatuate that physical quality or organs from there bodies. Where does this idioticity end (incase it does at all).
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
dear, the discussion is not about you and me. sometimes in a discussion, people take it personally. I am talking about the fact that Pakistan calls itself Islamic Republic of Pakistan instead of democratic republic of Pakistan, that Pakistan constitution is religionized, that we have sharia courts, that we have a sharia panel board whose only job is to ensure that every law in Pakistan should be by Islamic laws, that we don’t let non-Muslims to be PM/President of Pakistan, that we protect minorities based on what Islam has told us instead of treating them 200% as Pakistani citizens, that we have a syllabus from early classes which promote Islamic moral and social superiority instead of religious harmony and the list goes on and on.
so, I was not specifically addressing you but thx for clarification. what your post means you are indeed a true secularist, who firmly believes in his/her religious beliefs but don’t enforce it on others and I am sure you also want our gov’t and state to be the same way… totally secular. that is all
last but not least, you are regularly calling me a person of low IQ, stupid and ignorant. so when the discussion reaches to that level, no point of carrying it forward. in any case, we have made our points several times and now we are going in circles. let guppies decide. thx for some good discussion.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
That’s called giving into the demands of crazies. What should the state do if an extremist says, “We’ll start killing women who don’t do hijab or don’t stay at home”. Should the state ban women from leaving their homes or enforce hijab on everyone. I’m just following the logic you just presented. That would be the most peaceful thing to do, right?
Your prophet, his companions are important to you not me. No one will force you to criticize your prophet but I am within my rights to criticize, draw cartoons and stuff. I don’t do that stuff because I have muslim friends and family. I don’t wanna lose my people by criticizing something silly they’re passionate about. However, I would defend anyone who does want to criticize religious ideas or any other ideas for that matter.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
I will have a different opinion on this one. to me, it is the job of a secular govt to ensure that every sect is happy and gets enough protection without enforcing itself on others. so when someone wants to criticize what is important and Hollier for another sect/religion, he or she is crossing the line and now entering into the territory of another sect. it will create unrest and the state shd immediately move to stop this. if we go by your logic, hindus can insult muslims, muslims can insult hundis, shia can make fun of sunnis and sunnis can make fun of shias and the list goes on and on. a true secular govt shd not allow this happening on the pretext of “individual freedom”. my 2 cents thx
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
I think people should be free to criticize and debate ideas, and religion by extension since it is an idea.
Would I be correct in assuming that you are in favor of Pakistan’s blasphemy laws?
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
Dear, people will take it personally when you attack them personally. You quote my post and announce that that madrassah mindset (no matter what words you used for it) is the root cause of all problems & point to my ‘authoritative tone’ & what not & falsly accuse me of ‘enforcing’ Islam on you and others when I never do that in real life or anywhere else & you expect not to take it personally?
Call others arrogant out of your ignorance & expect people not to take it personally? Expose your m/cre intelligence & expect people to be impressed by it?
I did not study in local schools and madrassahs. I came to live in Pakistan after completing my studies overaeas, did not grow up in Pakistan either so your latest assumption about me that my mindset is influenced by the local political trends inside the country is also baseless. Then comparing my beliefs with fascist Islamic ideas is also another stupid act coming from you.
And no I am not a secularist so duh, that is also another silly assertion you made. I take my knowledge from a long research of Islam and a bit of other religions and I call myself an Islamic follower, not a secularist. So if you find my views to be secular rhen be sure that what you actually want to see implemented in Pakistan is ISLAM, not secularism. Dont mix up political fascist imposter Islam with normal Islam. Being a normal person, I follow normal Islam. So if my views have impressed you then what you really need is a few more shots of normal Islam & that is also what Pakistan needs, not secularism.
Re: What Islamic Ummah?
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. A fact is, “a thing that is indisputably the case”. A human will die and suffocate without oxygen, that is a fact. “Islam really is a source of peace and blessings for the entire humanity if followed in true spirit” is not fact because it’s not indisputable.
We’re not saying that a PM or Preseident has to be a non-muslim. We’re saying that people (the majority) should be able to elect a non-muslim as their representative if they want to.