Actions are like smoking ... Even though it may be him smoking the people around are doing it passively ... You would be surprised to see when you sit down to analyse "personal actions" how impersonal and society affecting they really are ... Smoking was banned in the UK in public places for a reason ...
So is driving & people are killed everyday in car accidents, but I'm sure you're not calling for banning driving. Life is about risk & nothing in life is risk free & that is not the point either.
The point is that only secularism guarantees protections against govt intrusion in individual liberty.
secularism is the worst system possible and thank god the muslim world is rejecting it wholsesale, even in the former tyranical secular nations of middle east the new governments have to use the tagline islamic laws just to be accepted by the people!
Perhaps you should practice what you preach and move to Saudi Arabia. Otherwise, why live in a worst possible system?
so you have no problem for strip clubs and alcohol bars in muslim pakistan
No. None whatsoever.
[QUOTE] broken society with no morals where many youngsters run riot and steal and live a life of wannabe rappers and have** attitude of get rich or die trying?**
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Yes, none of this happens in Pakistan.
[QUOTE]
secualrism is the worst system possible and thank god the muslim world is rejecting it wholsesale, even in the former tyranical secular nations of middle east the new governments have to use the tagline islamic laws just to be accepted by the people!
[/QUOTE]
If the Muslim world is rejecting it and you, an upright Muslim are also rejecting it, why live in Paris?
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Perhaps you should practice what you preach and move to Saudi Arabia. Otherwise, why live in a worst possible system?
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Quoted 4 Truth
For Mr Javed from Paris, a word starting with H comes to mind.
That is why the Hijab is banned in France. That is why Minarets are banned in Switzerland. That is why covering your head is illegal in Turkey. That is why men can not wear beards in Egypt.
Yes secularism indeed:
2) It allows personal and religious freedoms.
3) It protects religion form government and the government from religion.
4) Everyone is treated equally & no religious litmus test is needed for anyone to hold public office.
5) Under secular system you are free to believe or not whatever God/gods you believe or not.
All the nation quoted by you are not Islamic counties so we cannot blame them in anyway. In fact these nations are more developed that is the reason so many Muslims settled there and became its citizens. Do we allow any other religon to be promoted in any of the Islamic nations. No. I feel religion should be the personal matter and not the state issue.
[QUOTE]
javedmiandad;8462405]so you have no problem for strip clubs and alcohol bars in muslim pakistan which is 97% muslim population by the way, why can't they have 97 to 100% islamic laws instead since muslims are the overwhelming majority and the secualrists are a tiny tiny minority?
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because majority of muslims know what is better for them , you also for example you dont go to live in indonasia instead of hell of a country france which supports mother of all evil things america.
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you welcome the social ills they have in the west where the many non muslims don't even know who there mother and father is
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,
so in islamic society you are 100% sure every child knows his biological parents . there are no haram ki aulad ?
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broken society with no morals where many youngsters run riot and steal and live a life of wannabe rappers
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you mean there are no criminals in islamic societies, all criminals have some moral value.
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and have attitude of get rich or die trying?
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you are the burning example of such attitude ?why are you trying to take citizenship of france?for the same reason.
[QUOTE]
secualrism is the worst system possible and thank god the muslim world is rejecting it wholsesale, even in the former tyranical secular nations of middle east the new governments have to use the tagline islamic laws just to be accepted by the people!
[/QUOTE]
i am sorry to call you a man who always speaks against what he is practising in the life , you are living in a secular state and condemning it on the first opportunity, you are simply enjoying benifits of secular western world , you can not live in the islamic countries ,you will understand the secular states value whe you will understand first hand discrimination by hands of your so called brethren of muslim middle east.
All the nation quoted by you are not Islamic counties so we cannot blame them in anyway. In fact these nations are more developed that is the reason so many Muslims settled there and became its citizens. Do we allow any other religon to be promoted in any of the Islamic nations. No. I feel religion should be the personal matter and not the state issue.
Salma from Islamabad has joined us :p
However, her IP says she's from India.
So is driving & people are killed everyday in car accidents, but I'm sure you're not calling for banning driving. Life is about risk & nothing in life is risk free & that is not the point either.
The point is that only secularism guarantees protections against govt intrusion in individual liberty.
Sorry but I don't think it's true.
In Islam, people are allowed to do whatever they want to do in their privacy, there are strict laws against intruding someone's privacy. In West, these laws have been broken many times by stop and search and breaking into someone's property based only on "doubt" and no solid proof.
In Islam, people are allowed to do whatever they want to do in their privacy, there are strict laws against intruding someone's privacy. In West, these laws have been broken many times by stop and search and breaking into someone's property based only on "doubt" and no solid proof.
You missed his point. He said "**intrusion in individual liberty.". **Just like I said earlier that I should be free to do what I want as long as I'm not harming anyone else without the state butting in every two minutes. And that too on religious grounds.
You missed his point. He said "**intrusion in individual liberty.". **Just like I said earlier that I should be free to do what I want as long as I'm not harming anyone else without the state butting in every two minutes. And that too on religious grounds.
But when we talk about Pakistan, majority don't want alcohol and bars in the country, so isn't it part of democracy to give preference to the opinion of majority?
^^ You cant open club/bar/pub anywhere you like. There are zoning laws about where and what kind of business you can open. I personally don't drink or smoke, but I have no problem with people who do it. Just like religion, it should a personal matter. That is why secularism is the best system b/c it does not dictate about life style choices of people.
Shamraz, we have a whole bunch of confused people here. They think secularism mean there will be a strip bar next to your house where whole night drunk people will be dancing in the street.
Any society can not exist without making laws to safeguard the rights of the people, without taking too much personal liberties. You have made excellent points regarding driving which also involves risks for pedestrians. We don't ban driving, we make rules and regulate it by imposing speed limits in urban areas.. by zoning the areas around school.. etc etc.
When we are advocating secularism, we are not advocating complete insensitivity towards people's rights for the sake of personal liberties. We are saying we should regulate the society through collective wisdom by drawing a balance between liberty and rights of others.. without bringing religious orientation of a particular group of people in a multicultural society in state's decision making.. I fail to understand why people can not register this simple fact as every society in the world is multicultural today and must remain sensitive to every member of the society..
But when we talk about Pakistan, majority don't want alcohol and bars in the country, so isn't it part of democracy to give preference to the opinion of majority?
If you want to ban alcohol to safeguard people from ill effects.. ban it.. but don't ban it because it is written in the scriptures.. and because some mullahs have burnt some shops and created a law and order situation.
If people feel members of the society can not drink/handle alcohol responsibly.. and others will be harmed. Ban it..!!! But a person who is just having a glass of wine with his dinner without disturbing anyone.. I think it's taking too much liberty from him..!!! Even if the majority wants to take this liberty from him..
Democracy is not all about the majority decisions.. it's all about protecting the rightful reasonable rights of minority even until the last person..
Shamraz, we have a whole bunch of confused people here. They think secularism mean there will be a strip bar next to your house where whole night drunk people will be dancing in the street.
Those replies came in response to IceSoul's post where he wants bars and clubs to be allowed in Pakistan.
If you want to ban alcohol to safeguard people from ill effects.. ban it.. but don't ban it because it is written in the scriptures..
Going by the secular rule of banning something just because of its ill effects, junk food would be banned too, so where is the freedom and liberty in that?
And to the rest of your post, I'm not talking about individuals or people drinking in their houses here.
Going by the secular rule of banning something just because of its ill effects, junk food would be banned too, so where is the freedom and liberty in that?
And to the rest of your post, I'm not talking about individuals or people drinking in their houses here.
In fact it does happen. I know many small towns in Italy don't allow fast food outlets in their area. Some of them restrict the zones to ensure they are no where near the schools. In France I know there are many small town who don't allow fast food restaurants because they think it's a cultural invasion and they need to protect their culture. These things are debated and members of the society use collective wisdom to create a balance between liberties and rules. But never these rules are made with religious motivations.
Talking about individuals is important because nobody wants moral policing by the state. Individual liberties/right to choose is an essential part of human life within reasonable boundaries. You don't want to make rules which take away the essential individual liberties. In Saudi Arabia members of shia sect can not make a mosque let alone Christian community making a church for themselves. State has adopted sharia of a particular Islamic orientation with complete disregard to the essential liberties of others. Same is the case in Iran. There is a moral police in these countries who check your marriage certificate if you are driving with a member of opposite sex in a car. You may argue that this is not true sharia and I have invented a new sharia in which this will not happen. But why we have to bring religion in the worldly matters of the state. Rules to protect multicultural society can be made by the society according to their wish using collective wisdom.. but keeping aside the religious preferences of one particular group..
But when we talk about Pakistan, majority don't want alcohol and bars in the country, so isn't it part of democracy to give preference to the opinion of majority?
That is an entirely different issue. The thing being discussed here is secularism.
And ya, I stand by it that a strip club shouldn't be banned just because of religion.
Perhaps you should practice what you preach and move to Saudi Arabia. Otherwise, why live in a worst possible system?
you did not answer any of the points lablled against secualrism in my post why is that? maybe you couldn't answer
second issue where is islamic state in the world today? you say saudi arabia lets look at that basic of an islamic state from the evidences. Islamic state is the land where the rules of Islam are applied in all of life’s affairs and whose security is maintained by sovereignty of Islam.
saudi arabia king decides what is laws it is a declared monarchy and security is maintained by United States armed forces.
now it is established saudi is not islamic state where should one go to the moon? it is duty on muslims to help establish the islamic state where they are in world be it in morroco, dubai, karachi, or london because there are muslims in these lands also and they influence what goes on in what we can call the muslim world.
Saying neither. Saying the idealistic vision of Secularism you lot have does not stand the test of facts and reality.
Aren't delusions great?
You can conveniently look at these incidents in isolation and accuse hypocracy. Look at how we arrived here. I can give many examples, but choose to one few.
1) With less than 3 % muslim population, in Britan some fanatics have the aduacity to claim to fight for imposition of Sharia law and have their own parallel parliment of Muslim MPs.
2) In almost all countries (except some western nations) where muslims are minority, they want "secession", even when they share linguistic, racial and cultural heritage.
We men have lost a lot of our power over women due to secularism. Most religions extoll the superiority of man over woman. Secularism has done away with it. It is silly for a man to support secularism.
You can conveniently look at these incidents in isolation and accuse hypocracy. Look at how we arrived here. I can give many examples, but choose to one few.
1) With less than 3 % muslim population, in Britan some fanatics have the aduacity to claim to fight for imposition of Sharia law and have their own parallel parliment of Muslim MPs.
2) In almost all countries (except some western nations) where muslims are minority, they want "secession", even when they share linguistic, racial and cultural heritage.
And how does that negate any of the comments I have made? And the examples you provide are not examples of secuarlism. They are of freedom of speech.