I juSt watched on TV that some policemen cut the hands of two thieves in Vihari. They had stolen some electric wires.
I know police should not have done it on their own, but as a matter of principle, isn’t this punishment as per the famous shariah which most of us inspire to impose in the country?
That is shariah all right.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
Maybe they should start with tax evaders. I hear the pct of tax evaders, esp among the wealthy, is very high in south asia
They should investigate this policeman's finances. Did he ever take a bribe? Chop off his hands. And nuts.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
Maybe they should start with tax evaders. I hear the pct of tax evaders, esp among the wealthy, is very high in south asia
Yes, but that is not a priority because that particular Boko Haram shariah is silent on tax evaders.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
policemen have filed a report of suicide attempt against the victims. Allah hi hafiz hai
No this is not shariah. This is bull crap.
To begin with, only a Qazi can pass a judgment to impose punishments. No one else in an islamic state can take laws in their own hands.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
Had.a Qazi imposed thi s punishment, what then? Is such a punishment unprecedented?
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
I juSt watched on TV that some policemen cut the hands of two thieves in Vihari. They had stolen some electric wires. I know police should not have done it on their own, but as a matter of principle, isn't this punishment as per the famous shariah which most of us inspire to impose in the country?
That is shariah all right.
AsSalaamo Alaikum,
So is your concern the punishment, the ones carrying it out, the crime for which it was carried out, or the way it was carried out (lack of process?)? It's hard to say which of the three or more components of this situation prompted you to start a discussion. You know, just for clarification sake, so others can speak on the desired aspect of the matter.
Jazak Allah.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
Had.a Qazi imposed thi s punishment, what then? Is such a punishment unprecedented?
A Qazi would need to pass a judgement based on all circumstantial evidence. If the person was stealing due to economic reasons, then it would be wrong to punish the person for a situation that was pre-existing due to fault of the Government whose sole responsibility it is to provide for its citizens. During the Caliphate of Umar (r.a.), there was a brief period when the punishment of theft was suspended because of shortage of food/rations, because it would not have been fair to punish someone for attempting to survive. Belief of Umar was such, he feared that even if a stray dog dies in lands of his Caliphate due to hunger, he would be held to account for it.
A Qazi has to have the power to also find the Government at fault, if it turns out the economic situation was such that a person's hand was forced to commit a crime just to feed his/her family.
In a perfect Islamic state, it would be expected to have Islamic laws of Governance otherwise it wouldn't be an Islamic state. Each society is entitled to laws according to the belief system of its' people.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
A Qazi would need to pass a judgement based on all circumstantial evidence. If the person was stealing due to economic reasons, then it would be wrong to punish the person for a situation that was pre-existing due to fault of the Government whose sole responsibility it is to provide for its citizens. During the Caliphate of Umar (r.a.), there was a brief period when the punishment of theft was suspended because of shortage of food/rations, because it would not have been fair to punish someone for attempting to survive. Belief of Umar was such, he feared that even if a stray dog dies in lands of his Caliphate due to hunger, he would be held to account for it.
A Qazi has to have the power to also find the Government at fault, if it turns out the economic situation was such that a person's hand was forced to commit a crime just to feed his/her family.
In a perfect Islamic state, it would be expected to have Islamic laws of Governance otherwise it wouldn't be an Islamic state. Each society is entitled to laws according to the belief system of its' people.
Thanks Teggy! Nicely written.
I do see the logic of not punishing for a pre existing state of poverty.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
I read online that there are some who say that cutting hands in Quran is metaphorical only. Others say that cutting fingers is sufficient.
Then there are conditions. It can not happen in a poor society like Pakistan where people are often forced to commit crimes out of poverty.
Common people are not given enough education on those conditions. This is why they end up committing crimes in the name of religion.
This case is just one example. Other examples are stoning of that woman in front of Lahore High Court. Bombing of schools. Killings of minorities. etc.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
Common people are not given enough education on those conditions. This is why they end up committing crimes in the name of religion. .
Its not just the education. We have people like Ghazi Alam din and Mumtaz Qadri turned into heroes. Blame not only goes to religious scholars, but also to politicians, media and historians for that. Now every Tom Dick and Harry wants to be a Ghazi Alam Din, hence taking law in their own hand.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
Peace TLK
Although on some levels there are comparisons ... But I would say that Ilm-ud-din's case is different to that of the others you have mentioned.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
While teggy's post made a lot of sense, there is something about such extreme punishments for petty crimes that is disturbing. Jesus for example prevented people from stoning a prostitute. He mentioned unless you have not sinned, don't throw stones. And no one could throw. For everyone had sinned.
I have come across TLK ' S post elsewhere - he stated for those times such punishments made sense. They didn't have jails.
Times have changed. And laws need to keep up with the times. I am pretty sure if there is a god he or she didn't intend for such punishments.
That is not to say that non religious laws are always sensible and fair and vice versa.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
While teggy's post made a lot of sense, there is something about such extreme punishments for petty crimes that is disturbing. Jesus for example prevented people from stoning a prostitute. He mentioned unless you have not sinned, don't throw stones. And no one could throw. For everyone had sinned.
I have come across TLK ' S post elsewhere - he stated for those times such punishments made sense. They didn't have jails.
Times have changed. And laws need to keep up with the times. I am pretty sure if there is a god he or she didn't intend for such punishments.
That is not to say that non religious laws are always sensible and fair and vice versa.
A majority of practicing muslims believe that those laws/punishments which are specifically mentioned in the Quran, and which either were never abolished by a later revelation, or by Prophet (pbuh) through his Sunnah maintain their divine validity. The application of them is up to majority consensus of Qazis/Jurists who are experts in the scripture, and they again must look at circumstances of the crime, and practicality.
If a law's application is unfair, then any sensible person would object to its' enforcement. But if the crime is valid, and person commits the crime only to cause mischief and for no valid reason, then why wouldn't the law be applied? Each society should be able to maintain and apply laws according to the beliefs of its' people.
I, in my personal capacity and with my very limited knowledge feel that it's rather naive for me to start saying God didn't intend for such and such so long as scripture is intact, and validity of a law can be established, because I'm the creation; not the creator. This is purely based on belief, and an aspect that each individual may view differently based on his/her system of beliefs.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
As you state in the last sentence this is based purely on belief. And every individuals belief system may vary. Hence even in an Islamic state, since belief systems may vary, it probably is advisable to have laws based on modern criteria? And probably refine the modern criteria to level the playing field for all.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
I also said that in an Islamic state, the laws would be Islamic; as in derived from the Quran and applied according to the practice of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Qazi/Jurists' job is to make that determination regardless of who the defendant may be.
A modern example: If I migrate to a country and acquire a visa or residence status for that land; I am entering into a contract to follow its' laws. I must also understand that If I disobey those laws or act against them, I may be punishable. This same principle also applies to the citizens of the land. I see that as fair. And thus, If i commit a crime knowing that it is a crime then I am liable for the punishment that may follow it.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
" In a perfect Islamic state, it would be expected to have Islamic laws of Governance otherwise it wouldn't be an Islamic state. Each society is entitled to laws according to the belief system of its' people."
Yes. In post 8 you did mention that. There is no perfect. The last sentence above States each Society is entitled to laws per belief system of its people. In today's post you meantioned this is purely based on belief and each individual may view things differently based on his belief.
I find it impossible to reconcile the post 8 statement wrt Society's laws per society's belief system with the fact each individual has his own belief system.
That is why IMHO in any state laws should be based on modern criteria. With each individual free to practise his beliefs.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
Please look at my entire statement, so that it may be properly used to rebut my earlier statements.
[quote]
I, in my personal capacity and with my very limited knowledge feel that it's rather naive for me to start saying God didn't intend for such and such so long as scripture is intact, and validity of a law can be established, because I'm the creation; not the creator. This is purely based on belief, and an aspect that each individual may view differently based on his/her system of beliefs.
[/quote]
I'm neither an expert in religious matters, nor claim that I can dissect the divine laws. Hence, I repeatedly mentioned that a Qazi would be in a position to make such judgements because the Qazi would have to have studied and acquire expertise in the field.
As for the perfect Islamic state, then yes currently I don't believe there exists one, and hence the application of the laws may be questioned; not the laws themselves because majority of the practicing muslims believe their validity from the Quran and Sunnah (practice of Prophet Muhammad pbuh). Anyone that denies it would have to furnish proof of its abrogation from authentic sources that a majority of practicing muslims would also see as being authentic.
And of course each of can have his/her opinion on the matter. But the fact remains.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
Teggy explaining stuff extremely well. I just want to say one thing with my very limited knowledge.
Often time islam deals with complicated stuff as well, but the quran is not a privilege of learned and experts of certain fields.
Its for public(gentiles ). Quran know its potentials for being in the hands of people with not so good intentions, or the people who tend to twist things.
So It often say at the end of such complicated discussion, things, which clearly warn transgresses. Or even, some thing "if you do other then this you would be transgressing"(in my word)
That I saw twice, where matter or divorce were being discussed, and one place when matters of women were being discussed.
Both place very deep beautiful suggestions were put down, and then knowing that in those situation people exploit each other or inflict harm out of anger(anger because they think other party did wrong to them), clearly warning were put in place.
well--along with comforting realities of future, like an expert psychotherapist, which people often ignore out of sadness(not out of anger but sadness of going apart)
Dude.. I could not explain.. how humble I feel, when realize some thing.
PS: please feel free to remove this post, if it don't add to discussion.
Re: What is wrong with cutting hands of thieves?
You are correct in saying that Quran is for people. Quran in itself mentions that.