What is the whole picture?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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All I see here are stories about Taliban threat and support for the military action. And a closed 'the other side of the story" thread. Which is sad. I hope on the Day of the Judgment we are not amongst oppressors, both as individuals and as a nation.

What are we afraid of anyways? Don’t we have a much bigger army than few thousand of Talibans? Talibans do not have any strength to do the so-called “take over” of Pakistan. Or what we are really afraid is that the local people will start siding with the Talibans? Doesn’t that mean we need to listen to the grievances of those people -and give them their proper rights and rightful resources- instead of further destroying them because of our short-sightedness? What are we going to get out of from the use of force? What has it gotten us so far? What has it gotten America?

And most of all, why are we doing this because America says so? These are our very own people. We need to have our own plan. A long term plan and not a short term plan of fear and destruction.

Just want to have a constructive discussion.

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The said thread is closed in order to verify sources.

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Which is sad. I hope on the Day of the Judgment we are not amongst oppressors, both as individuals and as a nation.

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Ameen.

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What are we afraid of anyways? Don't we have a much bigger army than few thousand of Talibans? Talibans do not have any strength to do the so-called "take over" of Pakistan.

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Numbers dont matter. They do not have enough numbers to control the whole country, atleast not for long. What they do have is the ability to take over large parts of it, such as Swat, Buner, Dir, perhaps Hazara and Swabi as well. What they can also do, and have been doing, is maintain a base of operations in Swat and conduct random suicide bombings of civilians (which they claim credit for) in other parts of Pakistan.

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Or what we are really afraid is that the local people will start siding with the Talibans? Doesn't that mean we need to listen to the grievances of those people instead of further destroying them because of our short-sightedness?

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You assume that the local people want them there. In Swat the religious parties were voted out of power, which is partially why these nutjobs need to use force in order to take control. In Buner the locals assembled a lashkar to counter the Taleban when they arrived. The locals are the worst affected by the barbaric nature of these individuals.

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What are we going to get out of from the use of force? What has it gotten us so far?

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Pakistan has been relatively restrained in the use of force. Bear in mind that this operation ONLY began after a peace deal in Swat, which the Taleban violated by trying to take over another district, Buner, which neighbours Swat.

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What has it gotten America?

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This is not about America at all. There has never been an American presence in Swat.

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And most of all, why are we doing this because America says so? These are our very own people.

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We need to do this for our own people, to rid them of this menace and to stop it from victimizing still more people. That American interests (perhaps!) coincide is incidental.

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We need to have our own plan. A long term plan and not a short term plan of fear and destruction.

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Short term: kill Taleban leaders. Longer term: rehabilitate radicalised individuals.

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Taliban are not likely to take-over Pakistan, that is a scare-tactic world is trying on Pakistan to give-in to their "demand". Taliban are simple plain gangsters who can't fight in open fields, they can only fight in mountainous areas where they are unable to be seen easily.

There is nothing about "grievances" which Taliban are fighting for. They simply want to force their rule in the areas. In case you didn't notice they take over big-businesses to fund their movement. They have become oppressors themselves. The only thing I've heard about "good" from them is for poor people that they 've stolen lands from "rich" and gave it to poor for their earning. They've forced each house to provide one male soldier in return they pay each household some monthly income.

We have to do it on our own, we don't need anyone's directions. Only problem is that they've been using Islam as their cover which makes difficult for large population to condemn them.

which cell phone you people are using these days
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some perspective

Taliban vows more bloodbath in Pakistan

Taliban threaten two suicide attacks per week | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Pakistan: 100 die in Taliban suicide bombings - CNN.com

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Re: What is the whole picture?

What makes you guys think suicide bombing will not increase in retaliation?

You know what it really sounds like. We sound just like Americans before Iraq and Afghanistan war. We feel our livelihood is threatened and we feel we can rescue the people - liberalize them.

Now see where America is today. One side is in a deep hole with bloody hands, the other more radicalized and deeply lost. The only winners are those in power, who have done a fantastic job to maintain the power into few hands on the name of war.

I don't think people want Taliban. This is exactly why the government should have the people on their side. Give them everything they have been deprived of. Give them their rightful resources - give them food, shelter, clean water, education - send real scholars to teach them the real teachings of Quran, so they do fall for false claims. Talibans will have nothing to offer to them. They will get alienated by the people, and will eventually be either arrested and go onto their normal lives. At the very least talk to the people first, don't treat them as some animals that you can decide the fate of. If we don't have people on our side, we will a BLA of Northern Areas - I hope you guys know what is happening to Baluchistan right now.

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It may increase, but would be something like 'shama pharakti hay bujhne se pehlay'.

If currently Taliban were in Afghanistan only and we were hearing of "Taliban are coming" then I might have agreed with you. But they are in Pakistan, they have ruined many areas of Pakistan, they have challenged writ of the state, they have killed hundreds (if not thousands) of civilians they have slit throats of military-men, they 've looted wealth of locals, overtaken their businesses, destroyed their businesses, displaced so many people out of those areas... the threat is not "perception", they actually exist.

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Its a myth perpetuated by certain quarters that suicide bombing is merely a retaliation by people with grievances. Each such attack requires planning, faciliatators that procure the suicide bombs, planners that coordinate resources and identify targets, and a leadership that authorises them. If this were merely the most natural expression of grief, then the remnants of the thousands of people killed by Taleban suicide bombers would also find their way to the tribal areas and blow themselves up.

Eliminate the leadership and the rest will follow.

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You know what it really sounds like. We sound just like Americans before Iraq and Afghanistan war. We feel our livelihood is threatened and we feel we can rescue the people - liberalize them.

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You are mistaken if you think that the people of Swat, Buner or Swabi are in need of liberalization. No this is more like a hostage situation.

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I don't think people want Taliban. This is exactly why the government should have the people on their side. Give them everything they have been deprived of. Give them their rightful resources - give them food, shelter, clean water, education

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How? Government officers are killed, government posts are attacked, and when truces are called the government is pushed out of newer areas. People from NGOs are killed, elected officials are killed. How exactly do you expect the government to work for the people of the area if they cannot enter it?

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  • send real scholars to teach them the real teachings of Quran, so they do fall for false claims.

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Scholars/ulema who have taught contrary to the Taleban or have resisted them have either been killed or chased out of the area. In one instance, an 'alternate' religious leader was dug out from his grave, and hung in the public square for days, to show the consequences of religious opposition.

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Talibans will have nothing to offer to them. They will get alienated by the people, and will eventually be either arrested and go onto their normal lives. At the very least talk to the people first, don't treat them as some animals that you can decide the fate of.

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That is the very thing the government has been doing, at different points of time. This is not a knee jerk reaction, this has been simmering for years.

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If we don't have people on our side, we will a BLA of Northern Areas - I hope you guys know what is happening to Baluchistan right now.
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If any of these organizations should choose to live in peace and respect the writ of the govt of Pakistan, we should certainly be open to letting them do so.

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Re: What is the whole picture?

i have found in my personal experience that regular guppies in this forum are intend to go with the flow. it was the same with lal masjid tragedy, one thread after another with why they deserve the military action. this sort of bayhisi is so obvious in this forum that even if one tries to question the routes of action being advocated you are automatically a taliban lover. no idea of balanced representation, it only makes the situation reeks of trouble. no desire to get to see the picture from other side. all of a sudden popular view is as sacred as Quran and hadith it self. and personally i take strong dislike against the blood thirsty posts that suggest bomb em all,kill them like dogs, no empathy or even curosity about the situation. frankly if this is representation of pakistanis on net then i am not surprised muslim blood is so cheap in the world right now.

Discrepancies in Nawaz Sharif's Asset declaration
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bingo! thats because a specific class from pakistan visits this forum and rest are overseas guppies who donot appear to give two hoots about human lives in pakistan. all about the pakistani image to them, which is more effecting on their lives.

Timepass April 2013
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I totally agree with you on that. Actually most members get carried away with emotions and don't use brain.(Typical desi dilemma)
Problems are not solved with emotions and hate but are solved with an analytical approach foscusing on root caused and setting goals to improve the situation.

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Ok, other than whining about drone attacks, can you please give us some solid ideas on what needs to be done to surgically excise the Taliban out of this area of Pakistan, with minimal collateral damage?

And don't say "drones" - that option is already taken.

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True, and their hero was caught in an interview (available on youtube), where he goes 'andar raye gey tu marey jayen gey' . This is where these nudnicks got their inspiration from. They need to realize that if they cheered the deaths of women and children, no matter what the circumstances were, they'll get tit for tat when their heroes are shot down.

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i have done that already, go to my prevous posts through my nick.