Seems like there is another sectarian killing in Pakistan!!
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=586&u=/nm/20020226/wl_nm/pakistan_mosque_dc_2
Now, since there are any number of references to infidels and rules of war with infidels in Koran, can some experts enlighten us as to what the Koran says about believers who kill believers?
Or is it the case that one set says the others are infidels?
I mean does any sect put up theological justification for these things?
Andhra,
How did you get that it's Sectarian killing? There isn't enough proof of it yet.
If a Muslim(1) kills another Muslim(2), then Muslim(1)would get death penalty.
[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
If one can find references concerning infidels in Qur'an, without nay expert then what problem he/she is getting in case of believers?
Please quote the "number of references to infidels and rules of war with infidels in Koran". Search for references and you'll get the answer of your question in bonus.
Peace.
[quote]
Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger:
*If a Muslim(1) kills another Muslim(2), then Muslim(1)would get death penalty. *
[/quote]
How many of those killers have been given the death penalty or executed for that matter?
Andhra,
[quote]
Now, since there are any number of references to infidels and rules of war with infidels in Koran
[/quote]
I would really like to see those if you have any refrences.
If they don’t get death penalty here in this world, then they would definitely recevie on the Judgement Day
Ahmadjee, Assalam Alaikum
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Here we go.
The Spoils 8:36
Make war on them until idolatry is no more
and Allah’s religion reigns supreme…
<<
When I quoted this verse, people here didn’t contradict but said it is in the ‘context’ of war!!
Another one about sharing the booty from the same verse
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Know that to Alllah, the Apostle, the Apostle’s kinsfolk, the orphans and the wayfarers shall belong one fifth of your spoils!!!<<
By the way, I couldn’t understand the part about Apostle’s Kinsfolk. Isn’t that Nepotism? giving favors to relatives?
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For the record the quote is from ‘Penguin Classics’, ‘The Koran’ by NJ Dawood, Page 317
Andhra,
You said a number of instances, but you only quoted one. List down all you have got and I will answer them in a row.
Just so we can save some time and aditional meaningless behas
This kind of non-sense in not acceptable. For the extremists - all shias, sufis are infidels just like the ahle kitabi or the so-called polytheists and as such **they(muslims) can never be punished for killing a non-believer infidel **.
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 283:
Narrated Abu Juhaifa:
I asked Ali, “Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah’s Book?” 'Ali replied, “No, by Him Who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don’t think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur’an, and we have what is written in this paper as well.” I asked, “What is written in this paper?” He replied, "(The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel."
Ahmedjee Assalam Alaikum
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You said…
Andhra,
You said a number of instances, but you only quoted one. List down all you have got and I will answer them in a row.
Just so we can save some time and aditional meaningless behas<<
First of all what is ‘behas’ ?
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You want all instances right?
Listen to this argument. If you want to know if a pot full of rice is well cooked or not, you don’t test each and every grain.
You just pick up a couple of grains from the pot and see if they pass the test!!
So on that logic, the verse I quoted fails the test. It clearly tells the followers that Non Muslims are enemies and instructs them how to share the booty when they are done with infidels.
I am glad to note that you are not disputing the verse or saying it is anti-Islamic propaganda, a standard tactic of some people on this board.
And yes, I can come up with more. I did spend some time with Koran(NJ Dwaood’s translation.SEems quite popular)
and here are my conclusions.
1.Many but not all of the verses against infidels seem to be in the context of some tribal wars your prophet went through.
2.His ‘World’ is limited to Arabia, Persia, Egypt and and at most Rome. I was surprised to find there are no references to India in Koran.
3.Jews and Christians are unambiguosly declared as heretics.
Verse 9:25
… The Jews say Ezra is the son of Allah and the christians say the Messaih is the son of Allah. Such are their assertions by which they imitate the infidels of God. Allah confound them,. How perverse they are!!! …<<
4.Almost every other verse preaches obedience to Allah.
5.Koran seems to be as much about benefits for believers as about punishment for non-believers.
6.Koran seems to talk about most of the Chrsitian and Jewish prophets with the caveat that they were acually Muslims and it was Christians and Jews who strayed from the path!!
May be if I have absolutely nothing better to do, I will go through Koran again come up with a list of verses.
In the meanwhile since you were generous enough to ‘answer’ for a list of verses, can you consider it a list of one and give me the ‘answer’ on this one.
Ever the Curious Brahmin
Andhra
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Faceup, make up yourself. Do you have any proof that those Fanatics were Muslims? If so, then We Pakistanis have faith that our leader(Musharraf) would hunt down those fanatics and kick their ass ! Proof------His heck of speech(as of Jan.12) and CNN exclusive interview @ Jan.18. After all, some one would like to be hurdle in Musharraf's way(in Pakistan's way). Whether that person is Pakistani or someone else Right ?
That's what the point Musharraf came up with. "If you want to finished Terrorism, you need to cut its root off"
. And we Pakistanis will do that ! GodWilling!
Dear Andhra,
That’s pathetic. Islam doesn’t say to kill innocents or minorities. Yeah, some stupid Mullahs think so. But the teachings and principles of Islam doesn’t allow that. Islam does say not to believe people from another religion. But in this world of today, no one even trust in his/her own blood. How come you gonna believe “Third Person” then?
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Andhra please refer to the hadith… which i posted in the image gallery.. You will get the answer Inshallah…
which states …
"Hazrat Ibn Masood ne fermaya.. ke RAsool Allah (SAW) ne fermaye ke Kisi Muselmaan ko gali dena Fusq( not denying the order of Allah) or Kisi muselmaan ko gali dena Kufr hai "
Bukhari and Muslim..
Dont think “you can” know “you can”
.::. ¢¼ ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ ¢¼ .::.
Translate for me flameZZ!!
[quote]
faceup quoted Hadith:
I don't think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an, and we have what is written in this paper as well.
[/quote]
hmm dubious at best.. a statement contradicting itself.. first Ali says he doesn't think there is such knowledge and then he finds that 'extra Qur'an' written on a piece of paper only in his possession.
Hadith literature is filled with such 'gems' where just one person had the knowledge of something extremely important or at times even nameless Baddus are known to have told the general public about very important issues.
sadly it has to be dismissed as a fabrication/conjecture.
The Qur'an lays down rules of warfare with non-believers. Outside of that there is no license to kill for Muslims.
There is No Spoon
The Qur’an lays down rules of warfare with non-believers. Outside of that there is no license to kill for Muslims.<<
Here’s the answer for Ahmedji’s questions.
Can you tell us what those ‘rules of warfare with non-believers’ are Pakistaniaborad ?
I don’t know if other religions have such divine guidelines!!
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thats becasue Islam is not just a religion or a "western religion" or mere issue of faith. It is life and its guiding principles. It is politics, religion, beleif system, economic system, administration, sociology and more...
Wa-allaikum, Andhra!
"So on that logic, the verse I quoted fails the test. It clearly tells the followers that Non Muslims are enemies and instructs them how to share the booty when they are done with infidels."
Since I trust you so very much and of course your Penguin book is the one true source of truth on this planet, I sometimes so very feel like acting on one of these Islamic and Quranic commandements that you air out for misguided souls like I.
It'll be a bit hard for me given that I have friends from all religions and a certain very, very good friend of mine is also a Hindu (No, it's not you, Andhra though we could discuss such a setup too). But heck, since you tell me to, I'll just go and kill almost all my friends.
How about it? Hey maybe you could even go first and be slain? Now there's a thought!
Let me know, in the meanwhile, I'll get my weaponary and start polishing it for the upcoming battles.
sambrialian bhai, Walaikum Assalam
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Since I trust you so very much and of course your Penguin book is the one true source of truth on this planet<<
It is not infidel Hindus who are saying that. It is Muslims who are saying that Koran whose translations I am quoting the one true source of truth.
I sometimes so very feel like acting on one of these Islamic and Quranic commandements that you air out for misguided souls like I.<<
Well I can only direct you to OBL lately of Tora Bora
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Anyway, let’s wait for Pakabroad to come up with those Koranic injunctions!!
See, in an ideal world I would have hated OBL and would have rooted for peace and all for everybody.
But as much as I hate extremists and illogical morons, I despise ppl like you who revel in other ppl's misery even more. There are ppl who have lost relatives and loved ones in this barbaric act and as usual all you can do is open up a sarcastic thread. Pretty pathetic if you ask me!
Maybe ppl who hate you (and those who agree with you) aren't so bad after all. Hmm... Interesting!