Listen Andhra, read my post. Bilal is just a name. The significance of the name lies in the fact that Hazrat Bilal was the first black slave to have converted to Islam. He is held in very high regard by Muslims because he was praised by a lot of Sahabah (Companions of the Prophet) and even the Prophet himself. There is no Bilal race or ethnicity. Hazrat Bilal was not related to the Prophet at all, he was a Christian (I believe) who was sold into slavery in Makkah. Your friends have misinformed you.
Can any other Muslims shed some more light on this matter that seems to be keeping Andhra up at nights? Br. Ibrahim, FactFinder, guys, please give us some info here.
[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
**>>First of all , Paksitani dont have castes. ( Period ) <<
Wrong. Somebody here posted Zia is Aryan CAste!! How about Rajputs and Wadheras etc.,
On the Muslim side, how about Bilals?
B]
[/quote]
Rajputs and Wadheras are ethnic groups and by no means are castes. I think Andhra you need a class in sociology. Know the difference between an ethnic group and a caste system. No other country in the world has a caste system other than India. If you call yourself Indian first maybe you are a strong believer in castes.
[This message has been edited by fayax (edited February 18, 2002).]
Rajputs and Wadheras are ethnic groups and by no means are castes. I think Andhra you need a class in sociology. Know the difference between an ethnic group and a caste system.<<
For your information the distinction between Ethnci Group and Cate can be very thin. Infact Caste has it's origins in Ethnic Groups. Rajputs are aCaste in India. So are Wadheras. Like Priyanks Gandhi's husband!!
His Caste is Wadhera and his Ethnci Group is Sindhi!!
No other country in the world has a caste system other than India. <<
Oh Really, There are several threads right in this forum about Caste system still being follwoed in Pakistan. Granted it is wrong in Islam. BUt the realities seem to be different.
If you call yourself Indian first maybe you are a strong believer in castes.<<
Go through my posts again. When did I ever say that I believe in Caste System. Infact I believe it is stupid and antiquated!!
[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
**>>
For your information the distinction between Ethnci Group and Cate can be very thin. Infact Caste has it's origins in Ethnic Groups. Rajputs are aCaste in India. So are Wadheras. Like Priyanks Gandhi's husband!!
His Caste is Wadhera and his Ethnci Group is Sindhi!!
No other country in the world has a caste system other than India. <<
Oh Really, There are several threads right in this forum about Caste system still being follwoed in Pakistan. Granted it is wrong in Islam. BUt the realities seem to be different.
If you call yourself Indian first maybe you are a strong believer in castes.<<
Go through my posts again. When did I ever say that I believe in Caste System. Infact I believe it is stupid and antiquated!!**
[/quote]
If you think that Ethnic groups and Caste system is the same or the difference between them is very light then let me explain something to you. Ethnic groups DO NOT state that one ethnic group is better than the other. Ethnic groups no not have a hierarchy. Now that I have schooled you on the biggest difference between the two , maybe you wont think that the difference between then is a thin line.
Now let me teach you something about the caste system. Rajput and Wadera are NOT Castes. They are ethnic groups, that in India has incorporated within the caste system. Fact : there are only 4 caste according to the old Inidan cutlure and they were origianlly divided by profession. Later by the color of the skin ( almost ).
Please QUIT posting words that are simply NOT TRUE.
Why Pakistan seems to be populated by loonies who want to teach an Indian/Hindu/Brahmin about Caste system!!
fayax first of all you can't know much about Caste unless you are an Indian. It is like talking about Islam without meeting Muslims or going to a Mosque.
Fact : there are only 4 caste according to the old Inidan cutlure and they were origianlly divided by profession. Later by the color of the skin ( almost ).<<
Kinda juxtaposed right there. Original version was based on color, back when Aryans came to Indus Valley.
Later on it was divided and sub divided because of
1.Further invasions from Central Asia, like the RAjputsa were the last known invaders to be assimilated.
2.Bumping into more and more ethnicities as they went further south.
3.More and more new occupations etc.,
THe system never was rigidly implemented, except when it came to harassing untiuchables.
[quote]
Originally posted by andha_qanoon:
**Ok dear fayax...
what about casets like Shiekh,Sayed,Ansaris,pathans etc etc
let m,e know ur comment!!!
**
[/quote]
Sheikh, Sayed etc are ethnic groups. almost like families extended. A recognition as to what family you belong to. However in Caste system for example the Brahman could be a whole bunch of these names under the same guise. In India for example Mukherjee is a last name, an ethnic group if you will and it fits under the Brahman caste. Similarly a whole lot of those last names ( ethnic groups ) fit under Brahman and other castes.
[quote]
Originally posted by fayax:
**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by andha_qanoon:
**Ok dear fayax...
what about casets like Shiekh,Sayed,Ansaris,pathans etc etc
let m,e know ur comment!!!
**
[/quote]
Sheikh, Sayed etc are ethnic groups. almost like families extended. A recognition as to what family you belong to. However in Caste system for example the Brahman could be a whole bunch of these names under the same guise. In India for example Mukherjee is a last name, an ethnic group if you will and it fits under the Brahman caste. Similarly a whole lot of those last names ( ethnic groups ) fit under Brahman and other castes.
**
[/QUOTE]
whats the difference!!!!!
fact is that most of Muslim families in both India and Pakistan dont want their kids to get married in that ethnic group(as u said,let us assume its not caste for ur sake).
fact is that society is divided on this issue and its un-islamic.
Moreover going by your definition ,If its not a caste system then Indian Muslim also dont follow caste system.
[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
**Why Pakistan seems to be populated by loonies who want to teach an Indian/Hindu/Brahmin about Caste system!!
fayax first of all you can't know much about Caste unless you are an Indian. It is like talking about Islam without meeting Muslims or going to a Mosque.
**
[/quote]
Well let me ( a looney ) put it this way. To know the most about Islam you dont have to be from Mecca. To know about the caste system I dont have to be from India.
Right out of highshcool in Pakistan I worked with a PhD candidate who was writing his thesis on ethnic groups. So I rest my case. I DO KNOW more than you about the Inidan and Pakistani ethnic groups and the Inidan Caste system.
Have fun Kiddos!. I wont bother you anymore. Thought I could share my knowledge with some people here but it seems like some are Andhra and some plain Andha. lol. Go ahead and live your ignorant lives and if you walways keep thinking that to know about caste you have to be Indian,then ...May Gao Matha be with you. Peace out.
lmao
fayax you have not defined ‘Ethnicity’ yet, nor explained why Caste is different from Ethnicity.
I told you Caste has it’s roots in Ethnicity but is a separate developed entity by now.
You said.
To know the most about Islam you dont have to be from Mecca. To know about the caste system I dont have to be from India. <<
When did I say you be from Mecca to know about Islam or Muslims? All I said was you have to know Muslims and go to a Mosque (It is more significant for a Muslim than a Temple is for a HIndu) to talk about Islam and Muslims. Otherwise you may come to conclusions that all Muslims are intolerant terrorists which is what some people on the board whining about when they talk about Western media treatment.
Right out of highshcool in Pakistan I worked with a PhD candidate who was writing his thesis on ethnic groups. So I rest my case. I DO KNOW more than you about the Inidan and Pakistani ethnic groups and the Inidan Caste system.<<
Pakistan is a poor place to study Caste system. Most of the HIndus and hence most of the Castes ended up in NewDelhi after partition
This is how the Concise Oxford English dictionary defines the two terms 'caste' and 'ethnic'.
caste
1) each of the hereditary classes of Hindu society distinguished by relative degrees of ritual purity or pollution and of social status.
PHRASES
lose caste : descend in status
ethnic
1) of or relating to a group of people having a common national or cultural tradition.
2) denoting origin by birth or descent rather than by present nationality
3) characteristic of or belonging to a non-Western cultural tradition.
[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
**
Glad to know. Bilal is the name of few of my friends too.
He assured me they claim direct descendency from Prophet Mohammed and as far as possible don't marry outside their clan.
Caste for your information works exactly the same way.**
[/quote]
I think you are confusing between Sayed (also spelt Syed, Sayyed, etc), which does have the above meaning attached to it, and a plain Muslim name Bilal.
[quote]
Originally posted by aakhir kyon?:
**This is how the Concise Oxford English dictionary defines the two terms 'caste' and 'ethnic'.
caste
1) each of the hereditary classes of Hindu society distinguished by relative degrees of ritual purity or pollution and of social status.
PHRASES
lose caste : descend in status
ethnic
1) of or relating to a group of people having a common national or cultural tradition.
2) denoting origin by birth or descent rather than by present nationality
3) characteristic of or belonging to a non-Western cultural tradition.
Hope this helps in understanding the difference.**
[/quote]
wel if you take out the word Hindu from definition of caste then tell me
if sheikh,sayed etc fits into caste or ethnicity!!!
Addu,
I apologise. YOu are right. Infact the guy's anme is Syed Bilal!!
andha_qanoon bhai, right on..
according to the definition aakhir kyon gave
ethnic
1) of or relating to a group of people having a common national or cultural tradition.
2) denoting origin by birth or descent rather than by present nationality
3) characteristic of or belonging to a non-Western cultural tradition.
<<
Seems to be a definition of Caste.
Ah no doubt we will get more whining like I am ignorant Hindu and you are misguided Indian Muslim yada, yada, but they will never come around and admit some form of Caste is still followed in M<uslim societies.
COuld be outright Caste like Rajput or Aryan Caste in Pakistan or the tribes of AFghanistanand ARabia!!
.. basant is celebrated particularly in Lahore as a big cultural event ..as basant represents change of climate and time of crop cutting ..its popular in parts rural Punjab and with time has transformed into a big family getogether.. if its celebrated within limits there no harm in it and doesnt clash with Islamic traditions..
.. Caste system is still followed among muslims in northern India and most of Pakistan..South Indian muslims dont follow it.. Islam allows caste system sans which ordain any kind of superiority due to birth.. Islam never disbaned qabila system like Quraish, ummayyads etc ... so muslims who converted from hindus changed their religion but followed castes for the sake knowing each other.. and theres no harm in it.. one of the greatest contributions of Islam is the equality of human beings..so if any sayyed or Rajput, jatt or any one else thinks the person is superior for being born in any particular caste is jahil and idiot..
.. there r laws in Pakistan regarding basant like its not allowed to use wire along with thread and laws where human life is endangered.. secondly why should be laws against it..its cultural event and not a religious one..
Is caste a behavior ? .. I think one is born in it..
I am muslim and my caste is rajput .. if Andhra u changer ur religion u will retain ur caste
As far as Islam as a religion is concerned, there is no caste
system in it. It was one of the reasons, why lot of low caste hindus
converted to Islam and christianity and are still converting. Now coming
from idealism to real ground: caste system is part of Indian (Indian
subcontinent) culture. And it is as visible among muslims as among hindus.
There are differences in the sense that muslim low caste are not treated
with contempt as has been the case with hindus. But they don't get equal
respect and thus intercaste marriages are not common. Also muslim lower
caste were never prohibited from mosque or religious ceremonies/functions.
In urban areas, you might not note any difference among various muslim caste
except for marriages and I guess same holds true for hindu caste also. In
rural areas, the caste system is visible but at the same time you will also
note that there exists more gap among hindu caste than their counterparts
among muslims. In essence caste system exists among muslims but the
interaction among various muslim caste is different from hindus and
interaction differs from place to place depending upon the location and
economic status of the people involved.
applies to all the countries in the sub-continent. I have not heard about
caste system in middle-east/arab etc.