Most Indian Muslims are descendants of ‘untouchable’ and ‘low’ caste converts, with only a small minority tracing their origins to Arab, Iranian and Central Asian settlers (Sikand, 2003). Muslims who claim foreign descent assert a superior status for themselves as ashraf or ‘noble’. Descendants of indigenous converts are, on the other hand, commonly referred to contemptuously as ajlaf or ‘base’ or ‘lowly’ (Zainuddin, 2003). Going by this classification, an overwhelming 75% of Muslim population of India would fall into the ajlaf category (Anwar, 2001). But conversion to the egalitarian faith of Islam has not helped their cause. The ajlaf continue to be discriminated against by the Muslim upper caste (Sahay, 2003).(2) The ill treatment meted out to the lower and backward caste Muslims has led to a movement for recognition of the lower caste Muslims or ‘Dalit Muslims’ as Scheduled Castes, on par with the lower castes in the Hindu society (Sikand, 2003).
Thank You guys for all your replies. So it is ignorance and the ego problem that causes all these evils in the society, be it Hindus, Muslims or any others. All religions teach equality , people distort it or maybe don't follow it.
I hope we can all work together to finish such class systems in the society.
islamabad we are very far from integrating dalits , muslims but that is
the goal of the indian constituion . we cant emerge as a modern
nation without integrating 250 milllon dalits and 120 million muslims.
islamabad we are very far from integrating dalits , muslims but that is
the goal of the indian constituion . we cant emerge as a modern
nation without integrating 250 milllon dalits and 120 million muslims.
[/QUOTE]
My dear friend, how do you define integration? Does it mean being equal or does it mean letting go off your religion.
Bloody hell - not being racist but theres a lot of hindus on this site. Very surprising considering this is a Pakistani discussion board and nearly all of them were against the creation of our country.
By the way i know there are Pakistani Hindus aswell but i doubt all of u are Pakis.
Dear Islamabad, if you have more doubts, questions about Hindu religion, you are welcome. Do not worry, if you want to bash Hindutava, I can confirm you that Hindus are well matured in such discussions and do not float with the reaction.
Mr Fita, you are a little wrong. This massage board starts with the words, www and it means ‘world wide web’. Here you cannot bar the ideas, off course this not bloody hell.
I think most humnas support the concept as it is described in your initial post. The stupid jingositic, political governance laden hindutva is stupid. But then all religiously inspired governance is stupid.
I do not think that caste system is unique to hindu civilization. Caste system has existed in every civilization and continues to exist today. Don't believe me?
In Europe, while it was an agricultural economy until the industrial revolution, society was broken up into classes or castes that are very similar to the hindu civilization's: lords & knights (rajas & kshatriyas), clergy (brahmins), merchants, serfs (low classes) and even slaves. I don't know if there were slaves in hindu civilization although the untouchables could be considered at about the same level. Same thing in medieval china and other agricultural economies. This changed all over the world when the industrial revolution came and money became more important than even land. In south asia, the industrial revolution came at least a hundred years or more after Europe became industrialized.
Now there is still caste system today, even here in America, but it is now the caste system of the rich and the poor, the haves and the have nots. In almost all of the cases, children of the rich upper class remain in the rich upper class through better opportunities etc. The poor children remain poor. In capitalistic societies, they talk about the "dream," but the dream is not the reality. It is a very small section of people that rise up from the trenches of society. these people are paraded in the news and elsewhere to keep the "dream" alive and keep the masses happy. So wake up---we all live in a caste system even today, whether you're in India or U.S.A. or even communist countries (b/c they automatically assign you to a certain position or class in society based on your test score in high school and your family). Industrialized gora folk came to agricultural South Asia and started belittling the agricultural caste system that they had lived under just a couple hundred years back. Now the south asian countries are also industrializing and are also moving from the traditional caste system to the capitalist caste system based on $$$.
I think the caste/class system will never go away...its human nature. That's why we haven't seen a truly communist society. Its great in theory but never works in practice.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Islamabad: *
Thank You guys for all your replies. So it is ignorance and the ego problem that causes all these evils in the society, be it Hindus, Muslims or any others. All religions teach equality , people distort it or maybe don't follow it.
I hope we can all work together to finish such class systems in the society.
[/QUOTE]
Islamabad Bhai,
I have said this before, looks like after your self proclaimed exile and then your return you seem to have turned over a new leaf.
But this particular post of yours convinces me that you in fact are an intelligent individual.
Also, about how the caste system started: Originally, the caste system was not rigid; anybody could change his/her caste simply by changinh their profession. For example, the son of a priest could become a soldier if that’s what he fancied, and the son of a merchant could study the scriptures and become a priest, if that’s what his inclinations were.
Priests were generally the most respected members of society. And respect brings power, and you know, power sometimes corrupts. Some priests who wanted to hold onto their power distorted the scriptures and spread the hypothesis that caste was hereditary. Further, they used “fire and brimstone” tactics to dissadue anyone from breaking their new “system”. For example, if a “upper class” person interacted with an “untouchable”, they both will reap punishments in their next birth, etc. Gradually, this new system took hold, and became an oppressive system that it was known for until a few decades back.
Maybe I can conclude this thread with this verse of the Glorious Quran, a message for all mankind.
O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence God, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you. (4:1)
At another place in the Quran:
*“ Oh mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other (not that you may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the Sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. In addition, Allah has full Knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)”. * (49:13)
May we all unite in eradicating society's evils, the class systems and enjoin justice and equality.
Dear Islamabad, your question is very relevant. Do Indians support the concept of Hindutava?
I have a little confusion.
What is Hindutava?
If you are talking of Hindutava explained in your opening thread? I will say, No, this is all in theory. Indians follow the traditions, that’s all, and if needed very easily can divert themselves away from traditions.
(Indira Gandhi’ husband was a Parsi, there first son married an Italian. This family has ruled over India, no one questions their origin, I think this is the maturity of Hindus, or Hindutava.)
In fact the word Hindu is not very old, and as a matter of fact the Hindu biased party in India the RSS has high jacked this word, Hindutava.
Today it is a question of RSS to all Hindus and Indians. Do you believe in Hindutava? Do you follow Hindutava.
And what is Hindutava of RSS? Hindutava of RSS is a reaction to Muslim madrisa system, nothing else.
Following Hindu religion does not mean following Hindutava. Hindu religion is based on traditions and not on first hand ready made explanations.
Or what RSS says that being a patriot Indian is Hindutava. It is a vague issue.
I know this isn't a common perception, but chew on this....
We don't really know the real status as regards caste system and untouchability , say 700- 800 years back. But if it was really oppressive then, what is likely to have happened? The affected people would have tried to get out of the system. One could then ask, 'but where could they have gone?' Probably true some 1000 years back.
But when other religions were available 700 years back and had the backing of the rulers why is it that the whole lot of 'oppressed' people didn't cross over? Hinduism surely was not a religion held by force.
Is it possible then that either things were not oppressive as they are thought to be now or that there is something that is missing from the whole picture?
But as somebody on this thread said, the caste system is more a social (I would actually say economic) phenomenon rather than a religious one. All ancient civilizations had 'classes' of people (primarily based on occuption). These classes were reshuffled (if you think about it, they have never been eliminated, nor will they ever be) during the industrial revolution in the other civilizations. India missed the bus.
The problem of caste arose only due to improper understanding of it..
proper understanding of castse system according to Vedas is
right approach towards caste is given here…
Right understanding of Caste system is given here
ultimate purpose of caste system is
Vedas strictly order brahmin to guard the sacred Vedic manthra under any circumstances
brahmins are not previlaged caste.In contrast, the Brahmins who have preserved the dharmasastras have bound themselves to vigorous discipline, roasted themselves, as it were, in the oven of ritual practices. If the Brahmin’s purity is affected by someone he punishes himself by bathing and fasting. Please see this.
Best way of explaining certain traditions and vedic rites in reference to shudhras of hinduism can be found here..
fourth varna or the shudraas have been given previlages by the dharam shaastras.Please see this.
the brahmin according to dharam shaastras DOES NOT PRAY TO GOD FOR HIMSELF..he prays to God for the
soceity..
if brahmins created the dharam shaastras for his selfish purposes
then he would not have made such regorous rules for himself
please see this.
