What is basis for human knowledge? WAHEE or AQL?

Dear friends, seeing interesting threads on this forum, it seemed a good idea to start a thread that may help remove many misconceptions so please turn this thread into a thread that helps us straighten our angle of vision about everything.

kia aap jaante hen ilm insaan ke paas kahan se aur kaise aata hai?

kia aap jaante hen insaani aqal insaani ilm ki bunyaad hai?

kia aap jaante hen wahee ko samjhne ke liye insaani aqal ki zaroorat hai aur agar aisa hi hai to sawaal peda hota hai insaani aqal kahan se aati hai?

kia aap jaante hen aqlo wahee ka aapas main taaluq kia hai?

kia aap jaante hen aqal ke bagher aap quran ko samajh hi nahin sakte? na sirf quran balkeh kisi bhi baat ya cheez ko.

agar aap in baatun ko samjhne ki ehliyat rakhte hen to phir behs kis baat par hai? aur agar badqismati se aap itni aqal ke maalik nahin hen to phir baatun ko samjhne main apna waqt khapaayen na ke bekaar behso mobahse main.

each piece of information needs to be constructed into a whole concept that makes sense before it becomes acceptable to mind as complete or true. If not mind keeps de-constructing and reconstruction information till it becomes clear to it how it all fits together nicely unless it ignores the whole thing if it fails to do that. This process of construction, deconstruction and reconstruction is very important for people to know because it is fundamental learning process or mechanism.

Quran and hadith are not lists of instructions like a computer program or shopping list that you read instruction and process it and look for next instruction and so on. The whole information bank needs to be intellectually worked out into a full picture and then turned into a lists of instructions and then people can be given those instructions and they can carry them out as a self organised and self regulated human community. This is islamic way of life in practice.

The question is, which of our scholars have been that capable? How many are there even today among 1.5 billion? If any did attempt the mullahs of this ummah did not want him to succeed.

This is not for undermining anyone because purpose of my participation is to learn from better informed people and help educate people so that we all could see our own mistakes all by ourselves after learning how to see what is right or wrong and why that is the case.

regards and all the best.

Re: What is basis for human knowledge? WAHEE or AQL?

insaani ilm ki bunyaad sirf aur sirf aqal hi hai. sawaal peda hota hai aqal kahan se aati hai?

is ka jawaab sirf aur sirf yeh hai keh insaani aqal ke ilm ka darwaaza us ke hawaas hen jin ke zariya maloomaat insaan ke dimaagh ko pohnchatihen aur demaagh us par apna amal karta hai aur jo nateeja us amal se nikalta hai us ko ilm kehte hen.

agar koi baat dimaagh ko samajh nahin aati to woh baar baar maalumaat ko tod jod kar mukhtalif tareequn se us ko samajhne ki koshish karta hai yahan tak keh aik yaa doosre nateeje par pohnche. yani yaa to baat samajh main aa jaaye yaa phir usse kinaara kashi kar leta hai aik doosre waqt ke liye jak mazeed maloomaat us ko nahi miltin.

yahee construction, deconstrcution and reconstruction porcess kehlaata hai jo dimaagh ke andar jaari rehta hai. isi ko zindagi ka tajarba kehte hen jis ki bunyad par insaan mazeed maloomaat ko samajhne ki koshish karta hai.

insaanu ko khudaa ki taraf se paighamaat kaise milte hen is ke baare main abhi kuchh bhi hatmi tor par kehna mushkil hai. bahot mumkin hai yeh baat quran main tafseel ke saath mojood ho magar jab insaani ilm ki satah quran ko us darje par samajh le gi to yeh masla bhi hal ho jaaye ga. abhi is sawaal par tawaqaf hi karun ga, albata agar koi sahibe ilm yeh baat samjhaa saken to zaroor samjhaaye. taa keh hamaare ilm main izaafa ho sake.

yeh keh dena kaafi nahin hai keh jibreel aik farishta hai us ko khudaa ne bataaya aur us ne aa kay nabi ko bataa diya. baat yeh hai khudaa ne us ko kaise bataaya aur agar khudaa us ko baraaye raast bataa sakta tha to phir nabi ko kyun nahin?

is waqt beher haal peshe nazar sirf aqal seekhne aur us ko istemaal ki baat ho rahee hai. ta keh aam jahaalat ko door karne ki koshish ki jaa sake jo hamaari qowm main koot koot kar bhari hui hai.

mazed baaten baad main.

Re: What is basis for human knowledge? WAHEE or AQL?

"Aqal" is important but it is not everything. "Wahee" is Allah's message to his servant. Sometimes, understanding of what has been revealed also comes with the words of wahee and sometimes not. In case, actual understanding is not revealed, the messenger try to use "Ijtehad" to understand it. "Ijtehad" is error prone since it is based on our limited understanding but wahee is not.

Understanding of Quran (Allah's wahee) by ordinary people or I would say people with brains is not just based on "Aqal" alone if that was the case, Abul Hakam (The father of knowledge) would not have rejected it and had not become "Abu Jehl" (The father of ignorance). Also there are many brainy people (anti-Islam) who only could find faults in it despite having brilliant brains. So being "saeed-ul-fitrat" or mutahir (having soul free of impurities) is also important since Quran has stated

56:80) Which none shall touch except those who are purified.

Re: What is basis for human knowledge? WAHEE or AQL?

Thank you dear kchughtai sb, there is no argument that aqal is basis for all human knowledge because having sense of making sense of things is basis for everything else that man can think and do.

If we think about and question it, where does our basic,primary or fundational knolwedge come from? To begin with our senses give our brains windows to the outside world. This acts as stimulus for brain to receive information and process and store it and recall it as and when need be. The brain itself needs a lot of training when it comes to learning skills. This is why a baby cannot use his senses right away but takes time by trying to use them till he becomes skilled over a long period of time. Then baby learns to use his body parts eg hands a feet etc etc. He has to learn how to sit up, how to stand and walk and talk etc etc. This is why children are only sent to schools when they have become capable of learning from schools. You do not send them right away to universities to get education. However we sent them to schools hoping one day they will have learned enough to go to universities. Likewise we do not send them out to work because they do not have skills to do that either. So it should be clear that learning takes ages before one could actually employ one's skill for the purpose one has learned them. One day a baby becomes so learned that he can do amazing things ie he can reach the moon. Allah has placed huge potential in mankind to actualise it through learning an doing things. This is how man makes Allah look great. It is because man is his masterpiece ie Allah has created nothing better than man. If we talk rubbish about man, we degrade Allah himself without realising it. This world is created by Allah for mankind and such verses are repeated in the Quran. Allah has given the universe under the control of mankind to do with it as they like just like all the other things that man is using for his purposes eg donkeys, camels, cattle, gold, silver etc etc. However man also has been created for a set purpose and that is long way away yet from being fulfilled by mankind. All this is in the Quran if we could prepare ourselves to read the Quran and understand it properly. People can only understand information to the stage they have developed themselves biologically, psychologically and sociologically etc etc. This is why not only that we cannot understand the Quran till we learn how to do that but nothing else either. Can you build a bike or a car or a house without learning how to do it? No. Likewise all sorts of knowledge needs skills for making sense of it and using it for its purpose. So the divine revelation ie the Quran is not an exception.

This should explain to people why sir syed was right in pushing for aqal based interpretation of the quran and the rest of islamic sources of knowledge. I read his interpretation 50 + years ago and rejected it and due to mullahs propaganda as we all know it I also did not like what parwez wrote about the quran. However as I grew up mentally I started my own research and exploration and as I went on in time I found what was right way to approach understanding of the quran.

The way to understand the quran is use aqal to make sense of the quran but this aqal has to be aqal needed for understanding the level of information that is found in the quran. You see if you gave the quran in the hands of a baby and told him it is book of God so treat it sensibly. He has no idea and will take it tear its pages and start putting them in his mouth. So you will end up with a damaged copy of the quran.

What I am saying is that level of information given needs to wait for the recipient to grow up and be able to make sense of it. Otherwise it is like loading a donkey with loads of books and burying it under them.

This is the reason Allah created the world by setting up processes, systems, mechanisms and laws etc etc and gave it time to unfold. As mankind came about from the very same tree of life as other living creatures and learned sense in time only then Allah revealed to them his guidance because by that time one of them was able to make sense of it and teach it to others. In the quranic context there have been more than one aadams. One from which humanity branched off as a new species, the other who became human through learning and received revelation.

The verses in surah baqrah are not about creation of adam but about assigning him some task to bring humanity out of bloodshed by forming a proper human community and thereby bringing about a kingdom based on guidance of Allah.

Word malaaikah here is used for tribal chiefs at the time and word sajdah is used in context of, all of you submit to my program, constitution and law together if you want to get rid of way of life based upon laws of nature. People can either live by laws of nature or by laws given to mankind for overcoming laws of nature.

Laws of nature use mankind and laws given for guidance of mankind by Allah help him use laws of nature and rest of universe to his own advantage. So man has the choice to go by either way he wants.

Take word SHUKR for example, we generally take it to mean thanks. We never think about things to try to understand them for their purpose. For example, Allah has given us brains and senses and bodies and told us the purpose in form of setting for some goals to achieve. What is purpose of brain? Are we using it for that purpose? What is purpose of our senses? Are we using them for that purpose? What is purposes of our bodies? Are we using them for that purpose? Allah has created this universe for us and we are told about it in the quran repeatedly? Are we at all bothered with finding out what purpose can we use the universe and all that is in it for? Are we therefore really grateful to Allah for all this?

Now make sense of word SHUKR in that context. It means to use provision for the purpose they are provided for by Allah. Now the questions, are we using our brains for the purpose they are given? Is that appreciation of gifts of Allah or not? Can we really appreciate gifts of Allah by misusing them?

Now see the implications of this ie we are saying by our mouths thanks Allah but we are at the same time misusing things he gave us. Are we then not lying to ourselves and Allah?

More than that are we studying the quran for what it is given for to us as a gift. Is this gift least of gifts or most of them?

So time for us all to put our thinking caps on and show that we are human beings not animals. In the quran we read such verses which tell us we are born ignorant but with brains and senses, why? See 7/179, 16/78, 22/46, 23/78 etc. It is because we are supposed to learn through direct experiences in time. What does that tell us? That Allah has set up things to evolve from a simple state of existence to most sophisticated they can be. A clear proof that evolution is a fact. Not only that but Allah also condemns those people as animals who do not use their brains and senses to learn things they are supposed to learn by using them. Again a clear proof that revelation is not the basis for human learning but just a guidance once people have learned enough to make sense of it.

Both the quran and real world realities agree perfectly that basis for human knowledge is sense of making sense of things. Revelation is secondary to aqal. This is why Allah appeals to sensible people among mankind repeatedly for judging the truth about the quran and not to stupid people who are at the level of animals in their thinking level.

Although I cannot explain the origin of the divine revelation ie how Allah gave the quran to his messenger but we can at least discuss the proper role of it for mankind and can prove it divine that way. If we do not or cannot know something it does not stop us from doing what we can and do know.

We do not know how Allah created the universe but that does not stop us from studying the universe. Likewise it is not necessary for us to know each and every thing in life but what we can we should and try to make proper use of it to the best of our abilities.

regards and all the best.

Re: What is basis for human knowledge? WAHEE or AQL?

Dear friends, in my view the Quran is a very special book if we study it in depth.

Why? Because in it coming to common terms is told by Allah. Why is this point of vital important? Because you can argue all you like but if you do not have a solid basis then you cannot bring others to your thinking. So to begin with find yourselves upon solid basis. Now as you will try to do that you will be looking for a common ground toward which you can invite others. If you fail to find such common ground yourself then you will have to move to common ground that someone else has found for you and can explain to you how this ground is common ground. So long as you are apart you are not together and so long as you are together you are united. This is why looking for common ground is of ultimate importance in light of aqal and revelation both.

al-Imran 3:64

The origin of primary and secondary human knowledge is also told about in the quran. Leaving one in no doubt that without knowledge one is just an animal in human form. The emphasis on learning knowledge in the quran is unparalleled. Not found in any book in the world with such explanation. All drive in the world is for keeping people ignorant so that they can be used and abused by clever people like animals.

an-Nahl 16:78
al-Muminun 23:78](http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/23/78/default.htm) [al-Mulk 67:23](http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/67/23/default.htm) [al-Furqan 25:44](http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/25/44/default.htm) [al-Baqarah 2:78](http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/2/78/default.htm) [al-Hajj 22:46](http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/22/46/default.htm) [Yunus 10:36](http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/10/36/default.htm) [al-Jumuah 62:5
al-Hajj 22:3
al-A`raf 7:179

and many many more verses.

Truth has come and falsehood is to perish. Anything that is not based upon aqal is not true but false. Therefore following only and only that interpretation of the quran which helps understand the quran in light of aqal and practical realities on the ground.

Saba 34:49](http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/34/49/default.htm) [al-Isra 17:81

Besides verses like these there are many many verses in the quran which tell mankind to observe universal realities and learn lessons from them. Not only that there are also verses that are keep appealing to people who have learned sense to see if this quran is from Allah or not.

In each and every place the quran condemns those who do not use their God given brains and senses to learn and do thing for their own betterment as a proper human community.

Such verses or not odd one or two but hundreds spread throughout the quran.

How could an ignorant, illiterate and uneducated person write such verses in the quran and which book in the world has such verses in it that anyone let alone muhammad the messenger of Allah could copy all this information this way from those?

The quran constantly invites mankind to observe things and think. A book that wants to educate people out of their ignorance how can it mislead people? Even if there is something that gives us some cause for concern in it we should investigate it ourselves properly to see if it is the book that is saying it or is it because someone has masked its message for some reason by way of misinterpretation and misrepresentation. This is what the book tells us within itself ie for personal vested interests people have been perverting divine message through out history. The author of the book already knew people pervert messages and use them as a tool to use and abuse each other using the name of God.

The main point made here is that the quran does not tell people it is me you should follow blindly instead it gives primary place to sense of making sense of things and then appeals to mankind look at the information it contains and then see what conclusion you reach.

In other words the quran provides mankind with intellectual basis to judge things including the quran. If the quran stands on intellectual basis through construction and deconstruction and reconstruction process only then it becomes authority for mankind to live by.

Have we got any book that is of similar nature to the quran in the world today?

This is why no man is authority on the quran unless one properly understands the quran. Anyone who claims to be authority on the quran will be found out by depth and width of his knowledge. This shows mullahs are no authority on the quran because they never had sufficient knowledge to interpret and present the quran properly. To understand divine knowledge one has to have intellectual capacity and capability. Baby minded people talking about the quran be they muslims or nonmuslims can only look funny talking about the quran.

It is like a kid from a primary school giving lectures to phds. That is why it is fun listening to such people.

regards and all the best