koyes HDI is a kind of scale for countries, measuring human development based on health, literacy and general standard of living.
interestingly though a recent report shows the World Bank's stats on which the 'sucess' of the global economy (income and poverty) is measured r totally wrong. It would be interesting to see what effect if any that has.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
you can only compare the regions since they have the similar
cultural patterns
In South Asia, Sri Lanka tops the HDI scale ranking 84th, followed by the Maldives (89th), India (128th), Pakistan (135th) and Bhutan (142nd). Bangladesh, however, ranks lower (146th) than Nepal on the HDI scale.
[/QUOTE]
Assalamo alaikum brothers and sisters
just a kind request to keep on the topic and not to shift the discussion to economics.
Discussions are always productive when they are focused upon a specific subject matter, in this case, it is the underlying principles by which a state is considered Islamic.
Just to contribute to the discussion, some people have said that the principles that make a state Islamic are:
1) Justice
2) Consultation (shura)
3) Human rights
4) Freedom
5) Equality
Would you agree with these principles, if yes or no, why?
Wa salaam
Re: my understanding of the replies
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by koyes: *
to all my muslims
so what i have understood from the replies that the principal
of an islamic state is justice, then if thats true
what about UK it provides welfare i.e. justice for the people does that mean it is an islamic state.
if this is incorrect then plz correct me?
[/QUOTE]
No. Justice is one part of the system. Solely based on justice system you cannot regard any system/country as Islamic or non-Islamic.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
I had a question actully. How is the concept of "profit motive" looked upon in Islam?
[/QUOTE]
It allowed, I would think. It is within our nature of self interest. But possibly Islam would seek to "reform" in the wider social context, that it isn't an end in itself? But thats my opinion.
^ Huh?
Can you explain what you mean by reforming the concept of Profit Motive in a wider social context? Wouldn't that by itself go against the very concept of individual profit motive?
Being an economist you have much greater knowledge of these transactions and its implications on the trade, but my point of view is totally from a social aspect. I believe, that economists can (if they really want to) create a system which is in-line with islamic principles, so its just a matter of thinking about an issue with the principles in mind.
And I also believe that just one issue cannot simply derail the whole system.
Khilafah1422,
Consultation, Human rights, Freedom & Equality are all attributes of the justice system. The beauty of Islamic state is that it doesn’t confine you in one way or form of a governing system; rather it puts its weight on the principles which state should follow.
Minime, I am hardly an economist yaar. I can’t predict the past. 
But seriously, that was simply one indication as I mentioned. The greater question is that when centrally controlled entities determine means,costs,prices of goods and services it goes directly against our individual capabilities. Spreading of wealth is a noble concept and can come naturally over a period of time, as we are seeing around the world. One does not need religious scriptures mandating economic interaction,a s one does not need obstinant regulations under the socialism and communism dictats, which also had the greater good of people in mind but failed miserably.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
^ Huh?
Can you explain what you mean by reforming the concept of Profit Motive in a wider social context? Wouldn't that by itself go against the very concept of individual profit motive?
[/QUOTE]
What I meant was Islam would recognise an Individual's right to what he/she has earned/achieves. That is where it differs from socialism and communism probably. However, unlike capitalist system it doesn't place an overwhelming priority on it. I think it doesn't see profit motive as the ultimate end in and of itself but 'tempers' it with social responsibility. I am talking from Islamic principle p.o.v but I maybe wrong.
Rhia, you are correct that social responsibility has a inconsistent empahsis under capitalism. People always cite distribution of wealth. let me give you an example of the converse...In the 17th-18th century, before the british took over India, India was the second richest nation in the world, the second largest trading entity (after china). But this weath was kept in the vaults of the Mughals. The avg, Indian was dirt poor. The lives of people under the under the mughals or under the gandhi/nehru socialist system were essentially the same.
It was not until 1991 that the shackles of the islamic/colonial/socialist past broke the Indian economy free. The growth since then has seen lives of avg people improving year over year.
Its an important point in islamic governance, the provision of welfare. In this regard the Mughal are not different from the Saudi royal family or the Jordanian Hashmites. The poor we always remain poor if the kings and queens and Prime Ministers and Presidents are not accounted for by the judiciary, and for this the Islamic economic system is not at fault rather the Mughals and the Saudis are, who are trying to justify their rule through injustice and force.
Ch, my point is that (forget the islamic justice system for a moment) if today the Pakistani govt starts acting 100% on its own constitution and provisions of justice it would be a model muslim country in the world.
At the same time Minime, islamic system cannot by it's very nature of looking down upon modern concepts of trade finance and interest rate arbitrage compete or provide it's citizens with the tools to succeed in the modern world. I keep repeating the word "anachronistic" because in it's totality the islamic system is just that. Of course there are concepts within it that are noble. Just as there are concepts within communism/socialism/unrestricted capitalism etc. But in it's totality it is not open to judicial review, (how can you question the word of god?) which makes another topic available for discussion. Individual liberty..where is it better.. Democracies or Islamic system?
still waiting
to my muslims
i am still waiting on the answer what is the principals of
to say yes! this is an islamic state?
Plz muslims answer this question first
with regards to
justice
human rights
freedom
etc
if some people claim that these are the are the pincipals, then what is wrong calling the british and the American gov an Islamic State?
coz they implement this in US and Uk and hoping to deliver it to all the muslims country
plz all you muslims reply to this
Actually within the current framework I too don’t think the Islamic system would work or at least can’t be applied as it is because the pre-requisite of its economic system is for justice, individual accountability for ‘wealth entrusted to him by God’ and to an extent because of the fundamental that society can not be ‘sacrificed’ for the sake of the individual, all of which IMO is quite different (not anachronistic) concept in some respects to the current global economic system in place. The Islamic economic system would first and foremost require the establishment of an Islamic state, not vice versa.
Some of the most comprehensive work on Islamic economic thought including a detail critique and comparison to capitalism, socialism was done by Mohammad Baqir Sadr in his works “Our Economics”. He was killed by Saddam before all of the work could be completed I think but it is significant nonetheless.
Here’s an article by someone else on Baqir Sadr’s thoughts: An Islamic Perspective of Political Economy: The Views of Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr
I think, and let me repeat that, the biggest mistake muslims do is that they mix the form of government with the islamic state. There is no such thing as Islamic form of government. Again, there are jewish democracies like Israel in the world as well so what’s wrong with an Islamic democracy?
and about your comment on the judicial review of quran and freedom, what we need to understand is that Islamic system or quranic interpitations(sp) didn’t came out of vacuum the laws and principles were used and tried for almost 1300 years, yes there are no modern examples, but there are no modern examples of many things the current democracies were doing 60 years back.
koyes, I think its the provision of justice based on Quran and sunnah.
Minime, so under this islamic system or islamic democracy that you propose, is essentially a man made system. Is true jurisprudence is allowed then one can question whether non-muslims should pay the jizya if they don't want to or whether I can erect as many gurdwaras and synogogues as I want.
To answer your question the practices of the Israeli govt. would be a good example :) There are Twon Planning laws in Israel and Pakistan, by which your population has to exceed a certain level in a certain locality to get the permission to erect a religious building.
Theya re both wrong. Are they man made laws or are they religous mandates.
Talmud is not a Twon Planning ordinance, but the town planning law passed by the local or state government makes sure that it preserves the character of the nations described by the Talmud. So you see how democracy can be wrong for you but not for the local population ;). So I think now you understand the religious mandate.
Minime, it still doesn;t make sense. Are you saying that the "town planning laws" are manmade or are they scriptural. I could live with manmade laws becuase men made laws evolve over time. If you tell me that the Talmud says this or that teh Quran says minorities have to pay a tax because of my religious belief then we have an issue. I would rather pay a non-religious tax than any tax levied on me due to my religion. So see the difference. :)
principle
so minime,
you have proposed that a principle is
justice based on quran and sunnah
if you were given leadership to run a country what will you rule by.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MiniMe: *
I think, and let me repeat that, the biggest mistake muslims do is that they mix the form of government with the islamic state. There is no such thing as Islamic form of government. Again, there are jewish democracies like Israel in the world as well so what’s wrong with an Islamic democracy?
and about your comment on the judicial review of quran and freedom, what we need to understand is that Islamic system or quranic interpitations(sp) didn’t came out of vacuum the laws and principles were used and tried for almost 1300 years, yes there are no modern examples, but there are no modern examples of many things the current democracies were doing 60 years back.
koyes, I think its the provision of justice based on Quran and sunnah.
[/QUOTE]