You are told that the religious teachings you follow are not correct.
What will you say to defend yourself? Are you ready?
Real important questions which need to be answered are:
1- Who told you first which religion to follow?
2- What did you do specifically to confirm or refute someone’s claim that you must follow a particular religion/sect?
Nothing wrong or right answer but something to ponder. Answer can be simple and straightforward. No need to tell what you follow.
Re: What if.........
When your strongly held beliefs are shaken, it is very painful and very hard to take. And a lot of people go back.
This is described in Plato's allegory of the cave. A person living his whole life in a cave (whatever is in the cave is his reality) finally finds a way out, he is blinded by the light of the sun. It's painful. But if he stays out long enough (doesn't go back to his old beliefs), he will see that the source of his pain, the sunlight, is actually the source of all life etc etc.
Something like that.
The Matrix (which is a great philosophical movie) is based on this allegory. Remember the part where Neo learns what the true reality of the earth is? He gets very upset and starts fighting everyone.
I know this is an accurate description because I've gone through the same thing. People have minor occurances of it all the time, whenever they feel like they might be wrong, they get angry and upset and end the debate. That is why you see a lot of cursing and personal attacks on online religious/philosophy forums.
It still rattles me when something I believe in strongly is proven to be wrong. But I've learned to deal with it (or maybe I'm wrong so often that I've gotten used to it).
When someone questions my beliefs, I give their argument a fair amount of thought. I never dismiss any arguments just because they differ from mine. If theirs holds any truth, instead of pointlessly defending my views I change them. As simple as that. I think you just need to be humble enough to admit you were wrong. Which isn't that easy, because I don't always admit I'm wrong even when I have a feeling I am (depends on the character of the person I'm debating, I guess).
Re: What if.........
If we see the reaction of religious communities where the strongly held beliefs are shaken or turned upside down by circumstances, most people turn to the first defence mechanism>>>>>>DENIAL followed by another explanation to keep the faith going. A few examples i can think of;
Jesus Christ promised to establish Kingdom of God, he was crucified later. The christians came up with the notion that he paid for sins of mankind by being crucified.
Early shiites beleived Imam from progeny of Prophet saw was required to guide people when Imam Hasan Askari died without leaving a living offspring theory of occultation came up.
*I also feel that concept of Mahdi is also an offshoot of similar denial mechanism.
PS: I mean no disrespect to christians and shia brothers, its just a philosophical discussion on behavior and not a theological one.
Re: What if.........
^ Prophecy about Imam Al-Mahdi (as) is one of the most narrated subject in the book of hadith. FYI it is widely reported in the hadtih books written well before Imam Hasan Al Askari (refer to saha sitta book of hadiths).
Re: What if.........
^Well i did say that this is not a theological discussion, i am not saying that any particular concept is right or wrong. We are merely discussing what happens when people have given all there lives in persuit of a concept and it seems to be wrong.
The followers of Mouhammad Yousef the false prophet in Karachi, when he was exposed and was in jail, his followers ascribed it to akin to 3 years Prophet saw and his family spent in Sha'ab Abi Talib.
Similar concepts evolved in many other religions like Bahais etc.
^i agree but you must state the facts. Again FYI not only the early Shiites, but until today the fundamental Shiite belief is that Aaema from progeny of Prophet (saww) are required as a guide for the people.
^ Prophecy about Imam Al-Mahdi (as) is one of the most narrated subject in the book of hadith. FYI it is widely reported in the hadtih books written well before Imam Hasan Al Askari (refer to saha sitta book of hadiths).
which explains why those books contain a lot of bollocks. imam mehdi is one example.
You are told that the religious teachings you follow are not correct.
What will you say to defend yourself? Are you ready?
Real important questions which need to be answered are:
1- Who told you first which religion to follow?
2- What did you do specifically to confirm or refute someone's claim that you must follow a particular religion/sect?
Nothing wrong or right answer but something to ponder. Answer can be simple and straightforward. No need to tell what you follow.
I was born in a family that still follows the teachings of that sect of Islam, which is followed by the majority of Muslims. However, for past many years, I have, from the comparison of teachings of the other major sect of Islam, started to follow it.
The basic reason why I did was, when one day, while reciting Quran(written with tafseer from the previous sect's aalim's), compared the meaning of the Ayat-e- Mubahila in Chapter 3 of Quran. From that moment on, I knew which path to follow.
The other reason is that, throughout the childhood, we were being taught that from Ghaib(Hidden), we must conclude it to be a hint for God(Allah). If we take the meaning of being Momin as those who believe in Ghaib(God), then all jews, christians and perhaps hindus as well(they do believe in Ooper Wala, someone superior than their many gods), should be declared as having the very right believes (Nauzu Billah)
Regards
Re: What if.........
Allah has himself taken the responsibility of Quran's protection, for that reason, not even a single Aarab/Haraf has been changed of it. however, the humans, who have put translation and tafseer alongside, have twisted many a things, making it difficult for the Ummat to understand what is clearly right ot wrong.
The same goes for Hadiths, meaning that there are many non genuine quotations referred by people who were munafiqeen. That's the reason why the purest, correct guidance is from Quran Majeed and the 14 Masoomenn
Alla Huma Sallay Ala Muhammad Wa Aal E Muhammad
I was born in a family that still follows the teachings of that sect of Islam, which is followed by the majority of Muslims. However, for past many years, I have, from the comparison of teachings of the other major sect of Islam, started to follow it. The basic reason why I did was, when one day, while reciting Quran(written with tafseer from the previous sect's aalim's), compared the meaning of the Ayat-e- Mubahila in Chapter 3 of Quran. From that moment on, I knew which path to follow. The other reason is that, throughout the childhood, we were being taught that from Ghaib(Hidden), we must conclude it to be a hint for God(Allah). If we take the meaning of being Momin as those who believe in Ghaib(God), then all jews, christians and perhaps hindus as well(they do believe in Ooper Wala, someone superior than their many gods), should be declared as having the very right believes (Nauzu Billah) Regards
As far as I know believing on Ghaib is just one requirement.
Meaning of Ghaib is not that simple either.
As far as I know believing on Ghaib is just one requirement. Meaning of Ghaib is not that simple either.
I agree certainky to both the statements my dear
Re: What if.........
^I like the place you live at.... Very good thought.
^i agree but you must state the facts. Again FYI not only the early Shiites, but until today the fundamental Shiite belief is that Aaema from progeny of Prophet (saww) are required as a guide for the people.
i meant to describe the theory of occultation that was not present among early shiites.
Re: What if.........
Its a great shock for anyone who has been told many things to believe on since early days and later by someone else or self exploration one finds something sightly or grossly different.
I think continuous search for truth is in order. Any belief one might have needs constant refreshing and nurturing by seeking further knowledge.
In this regard one needs personal efforts. And be ready to adapt to a stronger and logical idea. *Not necessarily change the religion altogether but cleans off false attributes to the religion or belief.
*
Like I mentioned in other thread, using too much brain in religious matter has never been shown to help. Everyone who will use brain as final way of accepting or refuting religious belief is doomed to failure. However, off shoot religious ideas do need mind to ponder.
Re: What if.........
^How do you determine if a given idea is an "off shoot" or not? You use your brain! If use of the brain in religious matters was prohibited then why is Quran emphasizing a lot on the use of aqal? Quran has labelled people who do not use their aqal as "worse than animals
As far as my knowledge goes, Prophet (saww) and Aaema (as) only discouraged us to think directly about Allah (swt) as our minds are way too limited to grasp any understanding of the Almighty whatsoever (we recognise his Might by observing the might of his creations). I believe that other principles of religion, e.g. Tauheed, Adal, Naboowat, Imamat, Qiyamat etc, are open for dicussions and pondering. Infact its ibadat to think about them as a famous hadees says: "One hour of pondering in the way of Allah is better than thousand rakaat of Salat" (paraphrased).
... I believe that other principles of religion, e.g. Tauheed, Adal, Naboowat, Imamat, Qiyamat etc, are open for dicussions and pondering. Infact its ibadat to think about them as a famous hadees says: "One hour of pondering in the way of Allah is better than thousand rakaat of Salat" (paraphrased).
ahsant sister for your comments. From Islamic perspective, Emaan comes when you get rid of the doubts. And to minimize the doubts you have to gain knowledge. But once u acquite emaan then you SUBMIT yourself to the will of Allah and the doors of critical thinking go shut as obviously you then bow your head to the commands of Allah without questioning why i have to pray 5 times, why i have to pay zakaat, why hajj, why hijab etc etc. Even once you do become a believer it is not that you stop seeking knowledge. But the process of seeking knowledge is a must to keep the faith or to increase it. Let me quote a hadith here:
"Seek knowledge from the lap of the mother to the grave"
^How do you determine if a given idea is an "off shoot" or not? You use your brain! If use of the brain in religious matters was prohibited then why is Quran emphasizing a lot on the use of aqal? Quran has labelled people who do not use their aqal as "worse than animals
As far as my knowledge goes, Prophet (saww) and Aaema (as) only discouraged us to think directly about Allah (swt) as our minds are way too limited to grasp any understanding of the Almighty whatsoever (we recognise his Might by observing the might of his creations). I believe that other principles of religion, e.g. Tauheed, Adal, Naboowat, Imamat, Qiyamat etc, are open for dicussions and pondering. Infact its ibadat to think about them as a famous hadees says: "One hour of pondering in the way of Allah is better than thousand rakaat of Salat" (paraphrased).
You got the message all wrong I am afraid. Its my fault perhaps I should have been more clear.:)
Applying mind to perform religious acts is encouraged. Using brain to try explaining religious matters is useless and futile.
Try explaining Mairaj event by brain, Try explaining miracle of division of moon and Neil river by Moses hand etc. etc.
Brain only works on available senses. One just has to accept these things as part of religion WITHOUT making use of brain.
Use brain in applying your religious acts and try to understand wisdom in it.
Off shoot is wearing clothes showing ankels of men or having one foot long beard in my opinion.
Are we not witnessing two long threads where someone is beating his head trying to use brain and science in 'confirming' religious matters?
Be Khatar Kood Para Aatishe Namrood Mein Ishq
Aql Hai Mahwe Tamashaaye Labe Baam Abhi
Re: What if.........
So how did one finds out what to follow and search what is right or wrong?
Are we ready to answer anyone why we chose to stay in one or other religion/sect?
One reason I am asking this to have people pondering upon few situations I came to. Many young kids are being told at their school they might not be following right religion/sect. Using tactics of logic these kids are given a seed of doubt to grow their beliefs on.
---You got the message all wrong I am afraid. Its my fault perhaps I should have been more clear.:)
Applying mind to perform religious acts is encouraged. Using brain to try explaining religious matters is useless and futile.
Try explaining Mairaj event by brain, Try explaining miracle of division of moon and Neil river by Moses hand etc. etc.
I do not think you got my message right either. I said that we must use our brain to determine the truth about the fundamentals of the religion. For example, do i belive in my mind and heart that there is ONE God or do i just follow what i am told or what i have inherited. Once you agree upon the fundamentals using your mind then you submit yourself unconditionaly to Quran and the Prophet i.e. the message and the messenger of the God. Quran states that the Messenger has more rights over the believers then they have on themselves i.e. pure submission, the type you are refering to. Pre-requisite to all this is using the gift of aqal.
I do not think you got my message right either. I said that we must use our brain to determine the truth about the fundamentals of the religion. For example, do i belive in my mind and heart that there is ONE God or do i just follow what i am told or what i have inherited*.* Once you agree upon the fundamentals using your mind then you submit yourself unconditionaly to Quran and the Prophet i.e. the message and the messenger of the God. Quran states that the Messenger has more rights over the believers then they have on themselves i.e. pure submission, the type you are refering to. Pre-requisite to all this is using the gift of aqal.
Fair. I might not have gotten your message.
The answer to bold sentence is no.
You (not you specifically but people who believe they use brain to confirm the existence of One God) do not really believe on one God based on brain work.
The logical gramework you were given is based on what you were told in very early age.
Lets face it. A lot of people are actually following religion based on their early teachings and then they follow same course while using brain. it is hard to disconnect from early teachings.
A lot of muslims are muslims since they were born in Islamic family.
A lot of hindus are hindus since they were born in Hindu family.
Now: If one muslims today was born in hindu family and vice versa. What would have been the situation?
A (muslim) would have been hindu and (hindu) born in muslim family would be a muslim arguing with some hindu for his version of One God belief.
So my question was what really made you who you are today?
What did you do to achieve that?
You say brain and I say your heart.
No one can win an argument based on brain work.
You can never convince a person not to eat pork based on any brain work or logic.
Only thing you will end up with. Either saying you belive it siince it is in the book and has been told to others before. Besides that there is likely chance that you might even start doubting yourself why you as muslims should not eat pork.
Aqal is too limited tool to get to religious matters.
Peace.