“Any player found guilty after thorough investigation should not only be punished under ICC law but also sent to jail in Pakistan on treason charges”. This is my disclaimer before starting this thread
So ICC decided to suspend and charge the three players under article two of ICC’s anti corruption code. According to Haroon Logart, they had sufficient evidence before taking that step. I think most of us had no problem with suspending the three players. It is the manner in which they have been suspended yesterday under the anti corruption code where ICC is now alleging that these three have committed the crime and that I don’t like.
Things could have been done much wisely if PCB and ICC had decided to work on this together and then PCB suspending them as a standard operating procedure. But with ICC’s corruption charges officially placed now, there will be a lot of unneccasary mudslinging on Pakistan.
Anyhow, I am interested in knowing what evidecne ICC has got? What I gathered form Haroon Logart’s interview is that during the early part of this week ICC was trying to convince PCB that the trio must not be selected till the Scotland Yard investigations are over. But Ijaz Butt’s statement on Wednesday night that PCB will not suspend the trio prompted ICC to take matters into their own hands and charge them.
My question is:
Did Scotland Yard find a new credible evidence against the players which they shared with ICC on Wednesday night? If not then I don’t think ICC or Haroon Logart should be saying that they have “sufficient evidence” to charge the three players. And I don’t think NOTW videos have got any value to charge any player. The only person that could have been charged based on the videos was Mazhar Majeed.
We all were disgusted and got emotional when the videos first came out and wanted severe punishment for everyone just based on the videos. But if you objectively look at these videos, they tell you nothing except that whoever wants to charge players based on these videos must be joking. I think a lot have already been discussed about these videos lacking validity so I won’t be wasting my time on that.
I personally think ICC sensing that PCB won’t suspend the players, decided and acted hastily to charge these players under their anti corruption code which would just tarnish Pakistan’s image further. A very sorry state of affairs…
There are two types of consequences attached to this
1) Criminal
2) Organizational
Criminal charges can only be brought if some law of the land has been violated. As I understand by UK law, "giving money to some player to under perform" (or do no ball) does not breach any law UNLESS a bet has been placed on that event and because there is no evidence of bet being placed on the event of no-ball its hard to bring criminal charges. Even NOTW did not place the bet as they would have breached the law themselves.
Organizational (i.e ICC) laws DO have punishments for "taking money to under perform" and hence ICC is going ahead with their charges. Although it would have been good if ICC had waited for criminal investigation to completed but seems like ICC moved swiftly because of our stupid chairman who was reiterating in every interview that all 3 player are eligible for selection.
In easy words, think of this as employee browsing personal sites from work. Now he/she can not be charged criminally for this, organization can still take action.
In easy words, think of this as employee browsing personal sites from work. Now he/she can not be charged criminally for this, organization can still take action.
**but in case of Pakistani players ... nothing is proved yet .... everything is based on allegation and speculation .... Scotland yard is doing their investigation and ICC should have waited for their results ....
Having said that ... i strongly believe our players were involved in spot fixing (i just hope i m wrong)
**
I've said it in other threads earlier - ICC and Yard are looking into this whole saga from two varying point of views. Yard is concerned about the criminal aspect (betting/gambling) while ICC is looking into it under its own code of conduct. Their probes may/will cross paths but they don't necessarily have to reach the same conclusion since the scopes of their investigations/jurisdictions are totally different. ICC can't bring criminal charges while Yard can't probe spot fixing. As of now Yard hasn't been able to bring any gambling/fraud related charges against anyone involved and that is why ICC may be, getting frustrated is kicking into high gear and have used its own code of conduct to suspend the players.
The video so far doesn't prove that any crime took place but perhaps ICC feels that it does provide enough initial evidence of spot fixing. Thats why they have decided to flex their muscles due to lack of any criminal charges.
cadet018, All they have to prove that players did spot-fixing (took money, and did no-ball etc) which is a bit easier work for ICC than for scotland-yard who also have to prove that bet has been placed on that.
and I am in the same boat i.e strongly believe that players did it but its one of few occasion where I am praying and hoping that I am wrong.
**but in case of Pakistani players ... nothing is proved yet .... everything is based on allegation and speculation .... Scotland yard is doing their investigation and ICC should have waited for their results ....
Having said that ... i strongly believe our players were involved in spot fixing (i just hope i m wrong)
**
again my question is what evidence ICC has which Haroon is claiming? Apparently that evidence led them to believe that they can allege these players?
DC, I understand you point about taking action against an employee on disciplinary grounds based on the fact that he/she was browsing personal sites. My question is can you take action or even suspend on mere speculation that the employee may be visiting sites?
Well I am sure ICC have some prove in their hands that hey have not made public yet else they will make fool of themselves and Haroon will have to lick his own spit.
Now that prove should also be able to stand the trial in court of law because if ICC penalize players on the basis of weak evidence, I am sure players can take ICC to court of law.
again my question is what evidence ICC has which Haroon is claiming? Apparently that evidence led them to believe that they can allege these players?
DC, I understand you point about taking action against an employee on disciplinary grounds based on the fact that he/she was browsing personal sites. My question is can you take action or even suspend on mere speculation that the employee may be visiting sites?
Well I am sure ICC have some prove in their hands that hey have not made public yet else they will make fool of themselves and Haroon will have to lick his own spit.
Now that prove should also be able to stand the trial in court of law because if ICC penalize players on the basis of weak evidence, I am sure players can take ICC to court of law.
and now that is my next point. Personally I feel that ICC has got no additional evidence otherwise we must have heard something in media. They only know what has been shown in the media so far.
I strongly think that they hastily made the decision on Wednesday night after coming under pressure from ECB and their concern related to spectators and sponsors for the upcoming T20 and ODI series. Things would have muuh different if there was no limited over series scheduled after the test series.
I agree and that would have been avoided had our beloved Butt sahab announced earlier that players are not in the mental state of playing the games so and have asked not to be selected for upcoming T20 and ODI.....
and now that is my next point. Personally I feel that ICC has got no additional evidence otherwise we must have heard something in media. They know what has been shown in the media so far.
I strongly think that they hastily made the decision on Wednesday night after coming under pressure from ECB and their concern related to spectators and sponsors for the upcoming T20 and ODI series. Things would have muuh different if there was no limited over series scheduled after the test series.
I agree and that would have been avoided had our beloved Butt sahab announced earlier that players are not in the mental state of playing the games so and have asked not to be selected for upcoming T20 and ODI.....
We are talking about Ijaz Butt and PCB here. We can't expect them to operate with a foresighted approach.
I had this conversation with my Dad (he's a lawyer) - in terms of criminal charges the evidence thus far is quite thin - also courts do not take kindly to people being 'set-up' especially by tabloids.
However, on the ICC front...if Scotland yard has been able to VERIFY that the videos WERE made PRIOR to the match and the sequence of events happened as they were supposed to...THEN that could be why the ICC is suspending the players because it is clear they were involved in match fixing.
Also, while the players wont be charged under British criminal law....they WILL be charged under ICC's rules and code of conduct...which they are all liable to as international cricketers.
So...Im sure that Scotland Yard confirmed to the ICC that the videos were made PRIOR to the game, that along with reports that the money found in Butts room is the same that was given to him by the News of the World...is the real killer.
So...Im sure that Scotland Yard confirmed to the ICC that the videos were made PRIOR to the game, that along with reports that the money found in Butts room is the same that was given to him by the News of the World...is the real killer.
Yes, this the kind of evidence they need to show. But again the two findings which you mentioned are so significant that we should have heard about them through the media.
I think this will do some good to pakistani Cricket specially If we have some honest guy like Afridi leading the team ,
I know for a facts there is a Lot of corruption in Pakistan team the only reason why Mr Ijaz butt is in charge coz he is friends with Zardari , kamran Akmal should have been banned with asif amir n salman unfortunate for us he is still there , Zulqarnain deserved to play.
Now there is a great chance to break that LOBBY from Pakistan Cricket team , Good thing Irfan Malik is on board with shahzaib and fawad.
I sincerely would love to see a life time BAN on Salman Butt and M Asif give Aamir a chance coz its his First Mistake rest of them Ban em FOR LIFE .
never doubt in Pakistans talent generating Powers .
With the players being released without any charges by the police, ICC must provide whatever evidence they have to wrap up this drama. Personally I think they have jumped the gun after coming in pressure from ECB but time will tell. To me their only hope is going to be NOTW's next edition which will come out on Sunday.
