[quote]
That is why the Qibla was changed from Makkah to Jerusalem and back to Makkah again
[/quote]
very interesting Ibrahim. I know you dabble in comparative religion. Are there any hints to this from the Torah or Jewish tradition?
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
very interesting Ibrahim. I know you dabble in comparative religion. Are there any hints to this from the Torah or Jewish tradition?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: the original name of Makkah = Baca at the time of prophet Adam till Prophet Noah (pbut) and the confirmation of it being a city of security is even found in the veda as well as the torah )
Read!
Psalms 84:
** Blessed are those who dwell in your house; ** they are ever praising you. Selah
- Blessed are those whose strength is in you, ** who have set their hearts on pilgrimage. **
- As they pass through the Valley of ** Baca,** they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools.
Ibrahim says: for hindus they called this city “the city of nine gates” and made pilgrimage to it long after the time of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) when it had become courrupted and idols had been placed in it.
Read!
Luke 21 ** ( Prophesy for the coming destruction of Jerusalem) **
Some of his disciples were remarking ** about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, **
- "As for what you see here, the ** time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." **
- "Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"
- "As for what you see here, the ** time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." **
He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming,
I am he,' and,The time is near.' Do not follow them.
Read!
John 4:21 (prophesy for the change of Qibla from Jerusalem to Makkah)
- Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, ** a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. **
Ibrahim says: the reason for the change
Hosea 4
- Hear the word of the LORD, you Israelites, ** because the LORD has a charge to bring against you who live in the land: "There is no faithfulness, no love, no acknowledgment of God in the land. **
- There is only cursing, lying and murder, stealing and adultery; they break all bounds, and bloodshed follows bloodshed.
- Because of this the land mourns, and all who live in it waste away; the beasts of the field and the birds of the air and the fish of the sea are dying.
- "But let no man bring a charge, let no man accuse another, for your people are like those who bring charges against a priest.
- You stumble day and night, and the prophets stumble with you. So I will destroy your mother--
- my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.
- The more the priests increased, the more they sinned against me; they exchanged their Glory for something disgraceful.
- They feed on the sins of my people and relish their wickedness.
- And it will be: Like people, like priests. I will punish both of them for their ways and repay them for their deeds.
- "They will eat but not have enough; they will engage in prostitution but not increase, because they have deserted the LORD to give themselves
- to prostitution, to old wine and new, which take away the understanding
- of my people. They consult a wooden idol and are answered by a stick of wood. A spirit of prostitution leads them astray; they are unfaithful to their God.
- They sacrifice on the mountaintops and burn offerings on the hills, under oak, poplar and terebinth, where the shade is pleasant. Therefore your daughters turn to prostitution and your daughters-in-law to adultery.
- "I will not punish your daughters when they turn to prostitution, nor your daughters-in-law when they commit adultery, because the men themselves consort with harlots and sacrifice with shrine prostitutes-- a people without understanding will come to ruin!
- "Though you commit adultery, O Israel, let not Judah become guilty. "Do not go to Gilgal; do not go up to Beth Aven. And do not swear, `As surely as the LORD lives!'
- The Israelites are stubborn, like a stubborn heifer. How then can the LORD pasture them like lambs in a meadow?
- ** Ephraim is joined to idols; ** leave him alone!
- Even when their drinks are gone, they continue their prostitution; their rulers dearly love shameful ways.
- ** A whirlwind will sweep them away, and their sacrifices will bring them shame. **
Ibrahim says: hence all that took place was already foretold by the prophets.
Ibrahim says; Greetings of Peace to one and all,
Dear Brethren.
The hindu scriptures refers to a city with 9 gates and 8 circuits where God is embodied within (The House of God) and researchers had identified this as the Ka’abah in Makkah
And Brahma was actually Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) . This is similar to Christians converting Prophet Eesa (pbuh) into Jesus Christ.
Lets look at these texts in the Veda ( sruti or timeless and beyond corruption scripts in Hinduism)
** Atharva Veda X, 2, 28: [On Ka’bah]
Whether it is built high, its walls are in a straight line or not, but God is seen in every corner of it. He who knows the House of God, knows it because God is remembered there. **
The Ka’bah is not exactly cubical and its sides are not of the same length. The Holy Sanctuary (Haram) of which Ka’abah is at the center remains open day and night throughout the year and it is always filled with people praying to Allah (the One True God). Muslims face toward it during prayer forming circle in the Haram (Holy House) and the circle extends out in this manner throughout the planet Earth.
**Atharva Veda X, 2, 31:[On Holy Sanctuary (House) and Ka’bah]
This abode of the angels has eight circuits and nine gates. It is unconquerable, there is eternal life in it and it is resplendent with Divine light. **
The holy sanctuary (Haram) of which Ka’bah is at the center remains open day and night throughout the year and it is always filled with people praying and supplicating to Allah (the One True God). It has remained unconquerable. Abraha Al-Ashram, the Abbysinian viceroy of Yemen, tried to demolish it in 570 CE with a strong army and hordes of elephants but was prevented from entering the city (Holy precinct). The people of Makkah had decided not to defend the Ka’bah, fled the city and took refuge in nearby hills overlooking Ka’bah. By Allah’s Command, the ‘Abaabeel’ (flying creatures, birds) pelted stones at Abraha’s army and decimated it, leaving them like green crops devoured by cattle. This incident is described in the Surah (chapter) 105 of the Qur’an. The year 570 CE is popularly known by the Arabs as ‘The year of the Elephant,’ and Prophet Muhammad was born in that year.
Dr. Vidyarthi points out the following facts. The House of God has nine gates - Baab-e-Ibrahim (Abraham) , Baab-al-Wedaa, Baab-as-Safa, Baab-e-Ali, Baab-e-Abbas, Baab-un-Nabi, Baab-as-Salaam, Baab-az-Ziyarat, and Baab-e-Haram. Further, the eight circuits are the natural lines enclosing the areas between the surrounding hills, the names of which are: Jabal-e-Khaleej, Jabal-e-Qaiqaon, Jabal-e-Hindi, Jabal-e-Laalaa, Jabal-e-Keda, Jabal-e-Abu Hadidah, Jabal-e-Abi Qabees, and Jabal-e-Umar.
**Atharva Veda X, 2, 33: [On Abraham and more on Holy Sanctuary and Ka’bah]
Brahma (Abraham) stayed in this abode which is illumined by heavenly light and covered with Divine blessings. It is the place that gives (spiritual) life to the people and is unconquerable. **
The Ka’bah was built by Prophets Abraham and Ismail. It has remained unconquerable as explained in the preceding verse. Many verses of the Holy Qur’an and of the Old Testament in the Bible describe the divine blessings in this Holy house.
In addition to texts found in the veda, the under mentioned texts found in the SVETASVATARA UPANISHAD goes one step further to establish the Ka’bah as the house of God ( as it was known in the past)
chapter 3:
-
Separate from all the senses, yet reflecting the qualities of all the senses, ** it is the lord and ruler of all, it is the great refuge of all. **
-
The embodied spirit within the town with nine gates, the bird, flutters outwards, ** the ruler of the whole world, of all that rests and of all that moves. **
-
** Grasping without hands, hasting without feet, he sees without eyes, he hears without ears. He knows what can be known, but no one knows him; they call him the first, the great person . **
For further reference visit http://www.hinducentral.com/Hinducentral/Hindu%20Scriptures/Upanishads/SVETASVATARA%20UPANISHAD.htm
hence the City called ** Navadvaare Pure ** = in the place where there are nine gates , has been clearly identified as the Ka’bah in Makkah.
Now the question is why would the hindu scriptures have such mention of the Ka’bah if they were actually considered an eastern religion having no relation with Islam?
For a full treatment of some hindu scriptures and their relation to Islam kindly visit http://www.islam-mauritius.org/hindunislam.htm"
Brother Ibrahim, Assalam o Alaikum!
Jazak Allah, khair!
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
Assalamm o Alaikum!
The changing of the Qiblah is not an issue, as facing Ka'aba has no religious importance. It is just a symbol to which Allah has asked us to face in His Wisdom. A study of ayaat 142 to 150 of Sura Al-Baqarah gives the detail in Allah's own words. Asking for any further knowldege will only derail our thinking.
As I have mentioned earlier in another chain, asking too many questions about triviality is not good. There are many things that we have not been informed about today; some of them may become obvious to our future generations. It is beyond doubt that there are many things that have become common knowledge today which our ancestors did not have a clue about. Thus, if the intention is to extend knowledge, it is for the benefit of mankind. But if it is only for raising qquestions, it is a fitna.
Wassalam
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
another controversial claim about kabba:
The Black Stone which is the Shiv
Emblem still survives in the Kaaba
as the central object of Islamic
veneration. All other Vedic Idols could
be found buried in the precincts or
trampled underfoot in labyrinthine
subterranean corridors if archaeological
excavations are undertaken. The Black
Stone has been badly mutilated, its carved
base has disappeared and the stone
itself is broken at seven places. It's
parts are now held together by a silver
band studded with silver nails. It lies
half buried in the South Eastern portion
of the Kaaba Wall. The black stone is
called Sangay Aswad in Arabic. Aswad has
been derived from the Sanskrit word "Ashwet"
meaning non-white or black.
The term Kaaba itself is a corruption of the
word "Gabha" (Garbha
+ Graha) which means "Sanctum".
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
**another controversial claim about kabba:
The Black Stone which is the Shiv
Emblem still survives in the Kaaba
as the central object of Islamic
veneration. All other Vedic Idols could
be found buried in the precincts or
trampled underfoot in labyrinthine
subterranean corridors if archaeological
excavations are undertaken. The Black
Stone has been badly mutilated, its carved
base has disappeared and the stone
itself is broken at seven places. It's
parts are now held together by a silver
band studded with silver nails. It lies
half buried in the South Eastern portion
of the Kaaba Wall. The black stone is
called Sangay Aswad in Arabic. Aswad has
been derived from the Sanskrit word "Ashwet"
meaning non-white or black.
The term Kaaba itself is a corruption of the
word "Gabha" (Garbha
+ Graha) which means "Sanctum".
**
[/quote]
Pretty far-fetched. The only similarity is that the people of pre-Islamic Makkah and the Hindus pray to idols.
Similarity in words or in the source material of their idol to sangay aswad has no relevance. The stone, apparently, was not a diety on its own.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
is there any pre-islamic arabic writing
that survived that will give any clue
to kabba.
**we believe all prophets including Jesus(Isa) Joseph(yusaf) solomon(salman) jacob(yaqub) moses(musa) David(daud) Noa'h(nuh).
Name of Jesus appeared 25 times in Koran. We beleive that god sent 124000 prophets on earth.**
[This message has been edited by cool down (edited December 02, 2001).]
Does anyone have any links to old maps that date back to at least 600 CE which shows Mecca being called Mecca?
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
**another controversial claim about kabba:
The Black Stone which is the Shiv
Emblem still survives in the Kaaba
as the central object of Islamic
veneration. All other Vedic Idols could
be found buried in the precincts or
trampled underfoot in labyrinthine
subterranean corridors if archaeological
excavations are undertaken. The Black
Stone has been badly mutilated, its carved
base has disappeared and the stone
itself is broken at seven places. It's
parts are now held together by a silver
band studded with silver nails. It lies
half buried in the South Eastern portion
of the Kaaba Wall. The black stone is
called Sangay Aswad in Arabic. Aswad has
been derived from the Sanskrit word "Ashwet"
meaning non-white or black.
The term Kaaba itself is a corruption of the
word "Gabha" (Garbha
+ Graha) which means "Sanctum".
**
[/quote]
um..i dont think so.
the black stone is said to be part of the original building (Kabah) that had been built by Abraham. Muslims touch or kiss it as a sign of resect and it is NOT, as u say, "the central object of Islamic
veneration." Thats a total falsehood.
"Nothing Important Happened Today"
[quote]
Originally posted by hk:
** it is NOT, as u say, "the central object of Islamic
veneration." Thats a total falsehood.
**
[/quote]
Good job hk. I noticed the emphasis after I had posted my response, and then I had problems with my ISP connection.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
Assalamm o Alaikum!
The changing of the Qiblah is not an issue, as facing Ka'aba has no religious importance. It is just a symbol to which Allah has asked us to face in His Wisdom. A study of ayaat 142 to 150 of Sura Al-Baqarah gives the detail in Allah's own words. Asking for any further knowledge will only derail our thinking.
As I have mentioned earlier in another chain, asking too many questions about triviality is not good. There are many things that we have not been informed about today; some of them may become obvious to our future generations. It is beyond doubt that there are many things that have become common knowledge today which our ancestors did not have a clue about. Thus, if the intention is to extend knowledge, it is for the benefit of mankind. But if it is only for raising questions, it is a ***fitna. Wassalam *
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Wa Alaikum salaam wa Rahmathullahi wa Barakaathuhu
Dear Fact Finder
Peace and Contentment be upon you, your family and friends, and may Allah (swt) at all times confine us within the folds of His Grace, Bounty, Love, Mercy and keep us within the boundaries of Truth, Wisdom, Reasoning, Understanding and Faith. Aameen .
Jazak Allahu Kahir for your words of wisdom and reminders on this forum.
[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited December 01, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hk:
** it is NOT, as u say, "the central object of Islamic
veneration." Thats a total falsehood.
**
[/quote]
Good job hk. I noticed the emphasis after I had posted my response, and then I had problems with my ISP connection.
Once in Mecca, the first goal of the pilgrims is to get over to the Great Mosque that surrounds the best known structure symbolizing Islam -- the Kaaba. The Kaaba is a cubic stone structure the size of a modest house, but it's clad in a black silk cloth, with Arabic embroidered onto it in gold. Pilgrims rush to see this sight to remind themselves that they've actually arrived at the heart of Islam -- the center of their religion. The Kaaba is the location that Muslims turn to pray toward daily. Blessings for prayers in the holy Great Mosque are considered to be multiplied thousands of times.
**
[/QUOTE]
[quote]
Originally posted by Andhra:
**I understand 'Kaba' (I hope spelling it right) is very sacred for Muslims.
What is it's history? **
[/quote]
HISTORY of the HOlIEST PLACE in the World
By islamic traditions arabias inhabitants traced their lineage back to Abraham(peace be upon him), the ancestral patriarch of both jews and muslims. In the 2nd mellinium BC, Abraham(peace be upon him) left his family home at the ancient city of ur in mesopotamia, and went to dwell in palestine. His aged wife sarah appeared to be barren so at her urging Abraham(peace be upon him) wed a slave hagar(peace be upon her), who bore him a son, ishmaeal(peace be upon him). A number of years later sarah gave birth to her own son -issac. Because this 2nd birth caused friction between the two woman, Abraham(peace be upon him) took hagar(peace be upon her) and ishmael(peace be upon him) to mecca, an isolated caravan stop situated on the edge of arabia's western mountains. He left them with provisions and then returned to sarah. Hagar(peace be upon her) and her son were running out of water but one-day ishmael(peace be upon him) dragged his heel through the sand and a spring of clear, cool, water bubbled up beneath his foot. The spring became the well of zamzam, which would become a landmark to muslim pilgrims. The new water source attracted other settlers, giving birth to the city of mecca. Abraham(peace be upon him) visited hagar(peace be upon her) and his eldest son, and with ishmael(peace be upon him) he constructed the shrine that centuries later would be the holiest place in Islam, known as 'the kaba'. (now not only in Islam but there is no other place in the world that is more sacred than kaba)
Next to the zamzam well was a modest shrine known as the kaba, a small box like structure dedicated at that time to local meccan dieties. The kaba would one day become the holiest place in the world for the followers of the new islamic religion of which Muhammed(peace be upon him) was to be the prophet.
Housing a sacred black stone -a meteriote-and covered by a wollen cloth with zig zag stripes the kaba stood at 3.5metres tall as rebuilt in 608bc. Its door was elevated to make entry difficult for intruders. Its walls were made of alternating layers of stone and wood-an unusual method of construction in arabia, but common in neighbouring parts of africa,because mecca lacked trees, the wood undoubtedly came some distance, probably from a ship wrecked on the red sea shores somewhere west of the city.
[This message has been edited by cool down (edited December 02, 2001).]
yes it is true. (rviks u can also get ur answer here.)
**The State of Religion in Pre-Islamic Arabia**
We can calassified the religions of Arabs(before Islam) in fllowing categories.
1. Idol-worshippers or polytheists: Most of the Arabs were idolaters. They worshipped numerous idols and each tribe had its own idol or idols and fetishes. They had turned the Kaaba in Makkah, which according to tradition, had been built by the Prophet Abraham and his son, Ismael, and was dedicated by them to the service of One God, into a heathen pantheon housing 360 idols of stone and wood.
2. Atheists: This group was composed of the materialists and believed that the world was eternal.
3. Zindiqs: They were influenced by the Persian doctrine of dualism in nature. They believed that there were two gods representing the twin forces of good and evil or light and darkness, and both were locked up in an unending struggle for supremacy.
4. Sabines: They worshipped the stars.
5. Jews: When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and drove the Jews out of Palestine and Syria, many of them found new homes in Hijaz in Arabia. Under their influence, many Arabs also became converts to Judaism. Their strong centers were the towns of Yathrib, Khayber, Fadak and Umm-ul-Qura.
6. Christians: The Romans had converted the north Arabian tribe of Ghassan to Christianity. Some clans of Ghassan had migrated to and had settled in Hijaz. In the south, there were many Christians in Yemen where the creed was originally brought by the Ethiopian invaders. Their strong center was the town of Najran.
7. Monotheists: There was a small group of monotheists present in Arabia on the eve of the rise of Islam. Its members did not worship idols, and they were the followers of the Prophet Abraham. The members of the families of Muhammad, the future prophet, and Ali ibn Abi Talib, the future caliph, and most members of their clan – the Banu Hashim – belonged to this group.
source: http://www.al-islam.org/restatement/3.htm
Plz feel free to ask, if there are any other questions in ur mind.
[This message has been edited by cool down (edited December 02, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
The black stone is
called Sangay Aswad in Arabic.
[/quote]
The black stone is called Hajr-a-Aswad, not Sangay Aswad.
[This message has been edited by cool down (edited December 02, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
[/quote]
Yes, but the emphasis is on praying to Allah, irrespective. Not to the ka'aba. The significance of the ka'aba is nothing. It is only what Allah has assigned to it. Unlike other religions where the individuals decide to idolise an object.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by cool down:
**
Jews: When the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and drove the Jews out of Palestine and Syria, many of them found new homes in Hijaz in Arabia. Under their influence, many Arabs also became converts to Judaism. Their strong centers were the towns of Yathrib, Khayber, Fadak and Umm-ul-Qura.
Christians: The Romans had converted the north Arabian tribe of Ghassan to Christianity. Some clans of Ghassan had migrated to and had settled in Hijaz. In the south, there were many Christians in Yemen where the creed was originally brought by the Ethiopian invaders. Their strong center was the town of Najran.**
[/quote]
Jazak Allah, brother.
Just one thing to add. Some of the Jews and Christians were resident in Makkah because their scriptures told them of the coming of Ahmad, the Messenger from Allah, in this area. They were waiting for his arrival. When he came, some of them recognised him and converted. Others did not.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
I didn’t understand CE. What is a CE???
I am posting a link that shows a map of “Pre Islamic World”
http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tutor/islam/beginnings/arabian.html
[This message has been edited by cool down (edited December 02, 2001).]