what do you think replacing old ones with new version--?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Dear Readers,

Assalam ale kum,

I believe that our sheiks work so hard and they have made a big tree of ahadeez. Many of these Ahadeez are useless for todays technically advanced environment.

For example:

Sunnat is to have witnesses (two men) or one man and two ladies for adultration -zina.

I am sure these witnesses were useless in those days to punish some one for such a crime

And also they are useless today to punish some one for such a crime.

The reason is no one used to do , or would do these acts openly, nor any one would place the camera, in their bed rooms.

Specially in todays technological advanced environment rooms are built with cemented walls, and houses are also completly cemented. So no one can bring witnesses. The witness can be the man and the woman. And they can speak lie.

So during prophet Rasoul’s time: These witnesse (shahadats), used to be used to save the person from ILZAMs ,thats all.

Punishment is impossible to be given, as no one can see anyone doing crime of zina. If some one used to peep those days he used to be greater crimnal.

These witnesses used to save men and women being target of their enemies of putting blame on them of such crime as Zina. For example

Very renowned one:

When Hazrat Ayesha(R) was left behind in the qafella.And she stayed over night under the tree as it had become too lonely for them. Then these witnesses became the cause of saving her EAZZAt, till the time she stayed with her parents. No one could bring any such shahadat to raise finger on her character. Ofcourse later AAyat came which further proved in her favour.So Rasoul(P) took her back home after one month or so.

So witnesses regarding Zina that bring two men or one man and two ladies is not sunnat at all.

The Sunnat is that one must prove it . This is sunnat and today we can do DNA test to prove.

There fore in our technically advanced envirnment DNA test is sunnat for Zina, not witnesses.

Please read well before pass your comments.Because it is difficult to suddenly change once idea about sunnat of 1400years; but this is the fact, this is the truth, we all have to sit and interpret every thing again according to our time.

Regards Sokoon

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Re: what do you think replacing old ones with new version–?

Walaukum Salaam

Firstly the example you have given is totally incorrect. The requiremnet is to bring 4 Witnesses.

***Al-Noor 024.004 - And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;- ***

You need either a confession from the sinner or 4 witnesses (of the actual act). And if you cant provide witnesse you yourself are liable to recieve 80 lashes.

The whole point of making it difficult to prove is so that the punishment is rarely carried out. It is more of a deterrent. We are already given guidance of the acceptable evidence from Allah :swt:, 4 witnesses are required nothing else is acceptable and the accuser themselves are liable to be punished.

What will using DNA achieve anyway, it would mean a huge number of people given 100 lashes or being stoned to death.

Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4196:

Abu Huraira reported that a person from amongst the Muslims came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) while he was in the mosque. He called him saying: Allah's Messenger. I have committed adultery.** He (the Holy Prophet) turned away from him** , He (again) came round facing him and said to him: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. **He (the Holy Prophet) turned away until he did that four times**, and as he testified four times against his own self, **Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called him and said: Are you mad?**  He said: No. He (again) said: Are you married? He said: Yes. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Take him and stone him. Ibn Shihab (one of the narrators) said: One who had heard Jabir b. 'Abdullah saying this informed me thus: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the place of prayer (either that of 'Id or a funeral). When the stones hurt him, he ran away. We caught him in the Harra and stoned him (to death). This hadith has been narrated through another chain of transmitters.

If you notice from the above hadith the Prophet :saw: was not interested in getting him punished, he was trying to turn away from so that he would not have to hear his confession. It is better to remain silent and sincerely repent, especially if Allah :swt: has concealed your sins.

***Al-Noor, 024.005 - Unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. ***

There is nothing wrong with making use of modern technology but we cant just change clear Islamic rulings due to them.

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Sokoon, I respect your opinions but please make an effort and save your energies and read the meanings of Glorious Quran with tafseer. You will learn a lot.

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Re: Re: what do you think replacing old ones with new version–?

:jazak: its so great to have people like you on the religious forum, thanx for putting the information up.

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DNA tests are less than 100% reliable (though only just)

Furthermore, all they show is that a sexual encounter tok place. On their own, they cannot prove that the sexual encounter was rape rather than voluntary.

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Re: what do you think replacing old ones with new version--?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *
Dear Readers,

Assalam ale kum,

I believe that our sheiks work so hard and they have made a big tree of ahadeez. Many of these Ahadeez are useless for todays technically advanced environment.

[/QUOTE]

Sokoon, you are right about replacing the old wornout Books with the new ones. there are Hadithes which don't make any sense at all and yet muslims believe them as a matter of fact with NO Ifs and Buts. For example this hadith is completely non-sensical.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 414
…" He (Muhammad) said, "First of all, there was nothing but Allah, and (then He created His Throne). His throne was over the water, and He wrote everything in the Book (in the Heaven) and created the Heavens and the Earth.…”

How this story can make sense? If there was ‘nothing’ how God could have put His Throne over the water? Which water? What was holding that water? There must have been an earth to hold it. Then how is it that he creates the Earth after sitting on the water? How is it that the Heavens and Earth are created after the waters? Don’t you need to have an earth to contain the water? And don't you have to have the heavens to hold the Earth? Beyond the fact that the whole notion expressed in this Hadith is ludicrous,

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Re: Re: what do you think replacing old ones with new version--?

Muslims are absolutely certain that Allah revealed Quran through his angle Gabriel to Muhammad and nothing of that is changed.

Let,s put this claim to the test. There is a hadith that reports Muhammad one night, ride on a winged horse that drove him from Masjidu’lHaram to Msjidu’l Aqsa (in Jerusalem) and from there to the seventh heaven where he was shown the hell and the paradise and then taken to the presence of Allah. This story that is commonly accepted by All the Muslims and is known as Mi’raj is also confirmed in Quran

Glory to (Allah)
Who did take His Servant for a journey by night,
From the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque.
-- Quran 17:1

Here I am not going to question the absurdity of such trip. Considering that it would take the light (fastest thing in the universe) 8 years to make a round trip to the closest solar system, and 30 billion years to the outskirts of the known universe, and considering that wings don’t serve beyond the atmosphere of the Earth, such trip performed on the back of a horse with wings in one night is just stuff of the fables. If Muhammad could travel from Medina to the presence of Allah, riding on a winged pony, and come back in one night, then Allah’s palace must be not much far from Medina. I wonder how come no one has found it yet? We are not also going to ask whether the gate of the heaven is in Jerusalem? Why Muhammad had to go to Masjidul’ Aqsa in order to go to heaven?

The biggest problem with this story is that the Masjid’ul Aqsa “Farthest Mosque” was built after the death of Muhammad.

When Omar conquered Jerusalem he performed a prayer in the site where Temple of Solomon used to stand. The Romans in 70 A.D destroyed that temple. Since then no temple, church or mosque stood on that spot. It was Calif ‘Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan who built the Dome of the Rock around 691 A.D. i.e 72 years after Hijrah. And Masjidu’l Aqsa was built on the Temple Mount by the end of the 7th century. This is reported in The Concise Encyclopedia of Islam, Harper & Row, 1989, p. 46 and 102.

Muhammad’s alleged Mi’raj took place around the year 622. At that time Jerusalem was in the hands of the Christians. There were no Muslims living there and certainly there was no Mosque in Jerusalem. 53 years after the death of Muhammad, Muslims built the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa on the site where Solomon had his temple

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By the way, does requirement of four reliable witnesses to report and prove a rape not make it impossible for the female rape victim to get justice?

This means the rape victim better stay quite but should she become pragnent as a result the problem gets worse for her, does it not?

The idea here seems to be to deter rape victims from reporting the rape or does it?

If there are four relaible muslims present then how can they allow rape to take place?

Does all this make any sense in any way at all?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MMughal: *
By the way, does requirement of four reliable witnesses to report and prove a rape not make it impossible for the female rape victim to get justice?

This means the rape victim better stay quite but should she become pragnent as a result the problem gets worse for her, does it not?

The idea here seems to be to deter rape victims from reporting the rape or does it?

If there are four relaible muslims present then how can they allow rape to take place?

Does all this make any sense in any way at all?
[/QUOTE]

MMughal, tihis whole idea of dealing with rape case requiring 4 witnesses to prove that rape actualy took place is a product of biased mind therefore totaly ignorant and not worth debating. This only shows how badly arabs treated women of the time and it is sad to know that most of the muslims still believe and follow that absurd law(if that is what they like to call it)

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Reply to some of you Readers.

Dear Readers,

Thanks for telling me the # of witnesses required.

Some one of you have written that:

In Prophet(P) time people used go to Rasoul(P) and say I have committed adultration. unbelievable. If those persons used to be so pious then why/how could they ever think of committing Kunna hey kabira. I do not believe it.

Any way today no one would go to court to say I did this or that!!!!!!

So you need four witnesses, Is not this right?

From where you would bring witnesses?

On suspicion!!! if some one comes and say I have doubt on such and such ----He/she were involve in -------adultration tonight-----

Would Deen approves of witnesses; on mere suspecion?

I do not think that it is possible to take such witnesses correct to punish some one.

Where as if some one goes and says I suspect this and this person had -------tonight!!

Then DNA is the sure test to know. You have not to test more than two persons He and her only.

And if it is found that it was just( right) claim.
Then Zanis would be punished;

and if it is found that it was just a blame ;then those/that person(s) who would dear to come and complain for adultration of He and she would be punished.

So to my opinion sunnat is to make sure that blame is correct or not?
As first one person would put blame on some one then it is asked to bring four witnesses. At least in todays world.

I have read Tafseer many times but ------I do not want tell you about my opinion----------but I forget quickly. regards sokoon

P.S.:

Is not rape and Zina different in definitions?

Rape is forced adultration

And Zina is when both are happily involved in adultration. Please comment!!

Please think and give answer!!

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
DNA tests are less than 100% reliable (though only just)

Furthermore, all they show is that a sexual encounter tok place. On their own, they cannot prove that the sexual encounter was rape rather than voluntary.
[/QUOTE]

what is the ruling on proving rape/zina in the case when the act is detected thru a pregnancy?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by MMughal: *
By the way, does requirement of four reliable witnesses to report and prove a rape not make it impossible for the female rape victim to get justice?

This means the rape victim better stay quite but should she become pragnent as a result the problem gets worse for her, does it not?

The idea here seems to be to deter rape victims from reporting the rape or does it?

If there are four relaible muslims present then how can they allow rape to take place?

Does all this make any sense in any way at all?
[/QUOTE]

very good questions. someone please answer in light of islamic jurisprudence.

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Re: Re: what do you think replacing old ones with new version--?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Sher: *

For example this hadith is completely non-sensical.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 414

…" He (Muhammad) said, "First of all, there was nothing but Allah..."
[/quote]

Meaning: "There was nothing before Allah" as clarified by the other hadith in al Bukhari in the Book of Tawhid...

[quote]
, and (then He created His Throne). His throne was over the water,
[/quote]

Meaning: "He created the water before the Throne" as explained by the hadith in Musnad Ahmed and Sunan al Tirmidhi...

[quote]
How this story can make sense? If there was ‘nothing’ how God could have put His Throne over the water? Which water?
[/quote]

There was nothing before God... the creation of the water here is preceded by the creation of the Throne... see above notes...

[quote]
What was holding that water? There must have been an earth to hold it. Then how is it that he creates the Earth after sitting on the water? How is it that the Heavens and Earth are created after the waters? Don’t you need to have an earth to contain the water?
[/quote]

You incorrectly assume this refers to earthly water... it in fact refers to heavenly water... it is not a place on earth... and therein lies your problem...

... And as for rape... it all depends on whether you view rape in the same category as other sexual acts. It certainly differs from adultery and fornication in that the element of 'consent' is lacking. Various scholars have therefore placed rape in the category of crimes that are committed by one or more people causing public disruption, forcibly taking property or money etc. The rules for convinction will therefore be different and historically i believe different rules have been known to have been applied...

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http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=5676

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Re: Reply to some of you Readers.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sokoon: *

In Prophet(P) time people used go to Rasoul(P) and say I have committed adultration. unbelievable. If those persons used to be so pious then why/how could they ever think of committing Kunna hey kabira. I do not believe it.

[/QUOTE]

Fear Allah! Your own ignorance should not become a cause of nulifying everything. If you are not a Muslim you do not have to hide behind an avatar of a hijabi.

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Reply to Readers,

Dear Readers,

Assalam ale kum,

First of all, you must believe that I am a muslim, and I do not want to end up in hell. I have100% believe in Quran and of course Sunnate Rasoul(P).

I believe if I do not have faith in sunnate Rasoul (P), I can not find way to heaven. Through Quran and Sunnats we find the correct path.

If that path was made well and was paved well 1400 or 1500 years before many muslims could walk on it. But today our path has been lost,seems to be distorted, the reason is the advancement of the technologies. Intelligence of the people. 75 % of children know more than their parents.

Today all advanced countries are implement this aayat of qurani that

A kind of turjuma:( it is in FARAEIZ that Every one should find out and explore what is their in ARZ o Sama)

Human has gone on moon and other places in space. People live in laboratory in space. They have discovered the life code. They have discover how can we reach each other in a blink of an eye. Whole world is just under our mere finger.etc etc

Is not this true???
If you have courage say no.
It is fact.
You can not pass beside these facts by ignoring it, the way, you pass beside some aayate qurani, to not give allowance to some one for some thing.

Now I can prove to sher story of Marajj---

I am sure non of you who follow the ahadeez in the form of figure of speech----You can not prove it to him. You would say it is written like this, you would take the old book quotations and you would like him to believe in them. And you would sayit is what we believe in , if you are a muslim believe it like this, otherwise you are kafir.

Saying kafir to some one approves of your misunderstanding of the subject . It tells your inability to defend what you have clamed.

Please prove to sher Story of merajj----let me know how do you do it. I am sure you can not. Because you speak thing and figurative way. Thats call. You do not follow. But try----

Regarding the above thread, there are so many ahadeez ,if one studies can make a big huge list. I have just given example of adultration as this is being used in most foolish way .

God says Quran is sufficient for people who have intelligence and wisdom. But why shall not we use our wisdom and intelligence to follow things such as merajj.

Lets try to keep to thread discussion:

Shall we change old saying of ahadeez to new version, as many of them can be better implemented in modern technically advanced environment in much easier way, more efficiently,and old saying can be more efficient and quick in giving justice, if are changed to new version.

Thanks & regards

Sokoon

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Re: Re: Reply to some of you Readers.

r u now going to challenge all nuns and orthodox Jewish women for wearing the ‘hijab’?

Religious Thugs :rolleyes:

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Re: Re: Re: Reply to some of you Readers.

: Thanks for reminding. My bad…didn’t think of the other hijabis.

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Reply to Pakistaniabroad and Islamabad,

Dear Readers,

Assalam mun ale kum,

There is question put by sher in the reply, else where above your reply. And he has asked to prove the story of merraj. I have asked you to explain to him if possibly you can.

If you would not be able to satisfy him then I would explain in my new version of the same story.

Here we are discussing some thing else, not hejab of nuns etc. It is upon to them and it is upto any one who choses to put on scarf(it is not Hejab ,the world is wronly used in arabic) Parda GHARAT, HAYA is Hejab.

Wassalam sokoon