Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?
ibn sadique,
It is very unfair of you that you think we are deceiving you. In my first post, I said whatever your scholars think Muslims will be called if they reject Jesus a.s upon his second coming, is the answer to the question.
Mr.Popat You are going round in circles and repeating same things again and again – And I think the problem lies in you not reading other’s posts well or half-heartily. All that you have raised in this post has been done with!
Here we go again: - This time read everything well – word by word, please.
I am quoting your side – and see that they still use the word Muslim for non-Ahmadis– granting a status of Muslims (just about) – say something like defective or second hand Muslims who are committing kufr but not Kaffirs
Non-Ahmadi Muslims. Ghair Ahmadi
Sunni/Shia/insert-your-sect-here Muslims
Ahmadis don't call non-Ahmadis non-muslims but consider that they have committed kufr of not accepting the true Messiah. Try to ask question to your scholars as what is the status of those who will reject Mahdi and Masih.
It is not a matter of majority versus minority. Will you give majority a similar right where you guys are in minority?
read u_ahmed's reply. As far as calling is concerned, we call them non-ahmadi muslims
Compare the above with stance of your jamaat stated by Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad son and second successor of your prophet.
How can someone be kaffir and out of pale of Islam and yet be sort of Muslim!
(3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah as.
"The article was elaborately entitled A Muslim is one who believes in all the messengers of God'. The title itself is sufficient to show that the article was not meant to prove merely thatthose who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah'. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims."** A’inah-i Sadaqat** (pp. 135-136)
"Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)
"not only are those deemed to be Kafirs who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 139 -140)
"And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs." A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140)
veritable Kafirs” are “pakkay kafir” in the original Urdu book
Can you label pakkay kafirs as sort of Muslims???!
Look at your response - Instead of answering directly you were posing a question so that we can come to the required answer. You were hiding behind a question.
what ever your scholars answer on what one should be called if a Muslim reject Jesus(as) when He comes back again, is the answer to your question.
I still say that you're committing kufr. Thats up to you if you think you're not. And yes, being committing kufr doesnt mean you cannot be a Muslim, since you proclaim to be a Muslim, and we have no right to call you non-muslim.
That was answered – Quoting myself again - Okay I take Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a liar and a Charlatan and consider myself a Muslim. Will you still consider my a Muslim according to teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?
For example if a person doesn’t Pray or Fast or pay Zakat, he is committing kufr; but belief wise he knows that these acts are Fard and accepts them as such and does not deny any part of them is not a Kaffir.
Whereas if person prays, fasts and pays zakat and Believes that these action are NOT FARD and denies them to be so is a Kaffir.
If anyone denies fundamental beliefs stated in the Quran or twists its interpretation commits kufr and is deemed a Kaffir
ibn sadique,
All else aside, I ask you, what will you call a person who will reject Jesus a.s when he comes back ?? I need a straight forward answer to that. Let's say a 'Muslim' rejects Jesus a.s. What is he now ? a Muslim ? a non-muslim? a kafir? .. ?
You have not being reading well – that too was answered
^ Anyone who will reject *Hz. Isa Ibn Maryum's *(as) leadership will have committed kufr and will have opted himself out of fold of Islam - thus a Kaffir
What do you say about some charlatan who claims to be Isa (and his name was not Isa) and he was never born to a lady named Maryum? What do you say about those poor souls who fell for his nefarious trap - believing him to be a prophet whereas he never fitted the criteria.
Please answer this question to best of your integrity:
I take Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a liar and a Charlatan and consider myself a Muslim. Will you still consider my a Muslim according to teachings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?
Please answer directly no riddles and going round in circles; this has been pointed out to you earlier by the thread opener.
Why must you go round in circles and post riddles? You can post a direct answer?
Thanks. Do they use the word 'muslim' for non ahmadis or not?
