Western standards regarding freedom of speech

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

West keeps on stressing that it cannot control publishing blasphemous cartoons as they are the biggest proponents of freedom of speech. Mark zukerberg of Facebook has very recently vowed that he’ll keep not let freedom or speech be compromised in his website. Are there dual standards on what can be published or not? What prompted Facebook to remove this post? Does it not fulfil facebook’s definition of freedom of speech?

Facebook removes Hamza Ali Abbasi’s post on ‘freedom of expression’ – The Express Tribune

2

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

The last sentence merited it removal from Facebook. It does violate the community standards.

As to equating the N word and the Messiah angle with satire on religion, the N word being used against living human beings is beyond realms of decency. Ditto calling the H monster a messiah.

Staire, that makes fun of ALL religions doesn't come close to falling in the same league.

That a large number of followers of a faith would consider satire sufficient reason to go ballistic should be the cause of concern here. What Rushdie called the "but brigade" recently.

3

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

When it comes to Islam everybody believes that Allah gave us free will to do good or to do bad and we will be judged by Allah on the day of judgement based on what we did on this earth during our lifetime.
Allah has stipulated punishment for certain crimes out of Allah's divine wisdom.
Apostasy and blasphemy are not one of them or they are, please educate me.

Does this free will not encompass free speech against religion, religious figures and Allah(SWT)?

If Allah wanted swift action against apostates or blasphemous folks why would Allah not have categorically declared them crimes and prescribed a worldly punishment?

I think since they are crime against Allah or Allah's messengers so Allah wants to deal with apostates and blasphemous folks in whatever way Allah wants to on the day of judgement.

Allah out of divine wisdom knows that no worldly punishment would be enough for apostates or blasphemous folks. Allah might forgive and let those apostates and blasphemous folks bask in eternal guilt once they are up there.

Are those who are out there to punish apostates and blasphemous folks not violating this divine code of conduct. Allah has not given these fanatics a license to go and kill apostates and blasphemous folks or did Allah give them this license?

4

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

Where does freedom of speech come in then? The guy is just using examples to explain his point of view.

5

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

Facebook has a clause that states - and I am writing from memory - that the user shall not violate certain standards of decency. From their POV, - and I am speculating here- the last sentence may have violated Facebook ' s standards of decency. The last sentence - again from memory - states it is unavoidable that a large number of Muslims will get offended at such satire and take matters into their own hands. To me (and probably to FB) that is a veiled threat.

Also, the attempt to create equivalency among N word, Messiah and satire is an apples to oranges comparison. This is dangerous - because it appears to justify the response we are seeing - and the response the author promises in last sentence.

The other noteworthy points - the blacks and jews haven't responded violently to such slights.

6

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

Peace Southie

No ... He said that one out of a billion ... I.e. a lonely extreme voice already on the edge will get pushed over ...

Also ... There are ways to make FB work for us ...

7

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

Ali ... Hamza wrote a cracking post ... But it was too in your face and verged almost justification ... It also struck a nerve regarding the Hitler equals Messiah remark ... Even though it was not meant with that intent ... It was putting the idea out that hurt most.

We are fools if we think there is freedom in anything they offer us. But ... We can simply give facts ...

8

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

Peace Psyah.

I reread last sentence. "Someone from almost 2 billion ... would kill unjustly".

I don't know if this can taken to be one a 2 billion

9

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

Double standards eh!!!

Woman circumcision in Christian countries or by Christian is not considered a Christian practice but if it happens or is done my a Muslim then it is definitely Islamic.

10

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

This is how it should be but when it comes to Jews, something strange happens… one year ago in France;

France divided over ‘anti-semitic’ comedian Dieudonne M’bala M’bala - Telegraph

…performance by Dieudonne M’bala M’bala in Nantes was blocked by France’s highest court late on Thursday night, overturning a local judge’s ruling that the show should be allowed to go ahead.
The move was hailed as a victory over anti-Semitism by the French government, with Manuel Valls, the interior minister, stating “the law must be able to act”.

He said that the government would now attempt to stop his material circulating online.

“We cannot tolerate hatred of others, racism, anti-Semitism or holocaust denial,” Mr Valls said. “That is not France and the highest (administrative) court in the land has said as much and has said it clearly. This is a victory for the Republic.” …

=================================================

French cartoonist Sine on trial on charges of anti-Semitism over Sarkozy jibe - Telegraph

Maurice Sinet, 80, who works under the pen name Sine, faces charges of ** “inciting racial hatred” for a column he wrote last July in the satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo. The piece sparked a summer slanging match among the Parisian intelligentsia and ended in his dismissal from the magazine.**

11

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

I read the Telegraph article.

The reverse Swastika symbol - apparently used by anti semites.
Reference to gas chamber wrt a Jewish person.

Clearly hate speech. That needs to be stopped.

From my POV satire about ALL religions does not come close to this type of barbs. So I do support the banning of this comedy act.

Making fun of Lord Ganesha, as an example, may be in poor taste. But should not be banned. I hear the movie PK has some controversial scenes or dialogues. But that should not be banned. The VHP and RSS UT jobs are running around saying Hindu sentiments are hurt. Sorry. Barbs against religion should not be elevated to same status as barbs against holocaust victims. Just doesn't compute

12

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

You endorse my point. We make an exception when it comes to Jewish people. Thank you.

13

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

Re Sine, based on the article, if that's all he said, I am inclined to say much ado about nothing. Especially since he was a cartoonist for a satirical weekly. He should not have been fired. I would think he is entitled to go to court against the satirical weekly.

Having said that, it appears he has sued a journalist for calling him an anti semite.

And a Jewish rights group has sued him for what they perceive as anti semite cartoon.

So I would say due process is being followed.

The article didn't sat sine was defendant in a criminal case. So just par for the course I think. That's what courts are for.

14

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

NoI didnt. If it was a MUSLIM person who was a holocaust victim I would say the same.

If some one makes jokes about lynching wrt an African American I would say the same.

You are welcome. And a thanks due to you as well for now understanding my point.

15

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

How is making a joke insulting holocaust different from making a joke insulting Prophet Muhammad?

16

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

I had mentioned the difference in an earlier post.

The Holocaust was experienced by real breathing human beings less than 70 years ago. Some are still alive. Their kith a d kin are still alive. To make fun of that is akin to subject ting them to the Holocaust all over again.

It is like going to a rape victim and telling her the rape didn't happen. And laughing about it.

Doing a satire on a religious figure doesn't compare. I will stick with the Ganesha example. Make fun of him to your hearts content. IMO any hurt felt by Hindus pales in comparison to the Holocaust or rape joke.

17

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

There have been several brutalities comparable to holocaust for which there are no 'hate speech' laws. Call me 'insensitive, but why are Jews and Holocaust considered so sacred that we cannot make fun of it but making fun of dropping atomic bombs on Japan is not?

Millions of Native Americans were systematically killed by colonists. But we can make jokes about it.

Millions of African slaves were killed during slave trade but we can make jokes about it.

Millions of Chinese were killed by Japanese invaders, but we can make jokes about it.

Belgium's king kills 10 million Africans a hundred years ago but there are no laws about making fun of it.

My question is only this. Why are Jews and holocaust treated so special that we need laws protecting them? The answer: Oh, it is recent past and their kith and kin are still living is BS.

The same organization fires an employee for making anti-Jew cartoons but supports vehemently the right of 'free speech' when it comes to making anti-Muslim jokes?

I can say only this: For you and I, religion might not be important, but for Millions and millions of Muslims respect Muhammad (PBUH) a 1,000 times more than their own parents. If holocaust denial hurts Jews, then disrespecting Muhammad (PBUH) hurts Muslims much much more. You can call it irrational, but this is how things are.

If you are going to support 'free speech', then you should support it across the board and not selectively.

18

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

ALL the categories (except) religion is off limits as far as I am concerned.

I didn't know the organization that fired Sine was the same organization that tolerated satire on a Muslim religious figure. (I must be living under a rock - but I truly didn't know).

I do call it irrational that satire on a religious figure - be it Siva, Ganesha, or Christ, would be more hurtful than satire on slavery holocaust or the other items you have listed.

It is such feelings that then lead to blasphemy laws where a Christian is sentence to death for allegedly desecration a holy book.

There ought to be more people hurt about that. There needs to be more outrage abt such laws. Rather than worry abt hurt when a religious figure is subject to sattire.

That is my opinion. And it stands regardless of which religion is subject to sattire.

I personally won't engage in it. I don't see the point.

19

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

Read the title of this thread. We are not talking about merits or demerits of freedom of speech. We are talking about how it is practiced in the West.

I would agree with you about how it SHOULD be practiced, but there is overwhelming evidence that Jewish sentiments are held more sacred than anything else while actually implementing it. You can joke about everything (the things I have listed have been made fun of in very crude ways) except holocaust.

Charlie Hebdo.

20

Re: Western standards regarding freedom of speech

Came across Charlie Hebdo in FB. And didn't have a clue - and still don't - who he is.

Can you give me an instance of a sattire being made at any of the other victims' expense. For I sure don't recall a white comedian in America getting a laugh for making jokes abt blacks slavery experience. Or denying slavery existed. The KKK is not exactly a respectable organization.

For your hypothesis to be true, there needs to be evidence making fun if those victims is accepted.