weird...

Is it right to take a fatalistic view when a natural disaster strikes, to say for example, as some “conservative” Iranian news agencies are stating, that the earthquake in Bam was God’s Will. If i am not mistaken, are there not three things that are pre-determined the moment you are born (i am sure someone will correct me if i am wrong) and one of them is how/when you die. Or is it more accurate to say that, no - had the Iranian housing ministry implemented stricter construction codes for Bam, knowing as they did that Iran lies on an earthquake-prone plate, then perhaps these deaths may have been avoided? Where do you draw the line between believing what’s going to happen regardless of a mortal’s interventions because it has been Divinely pre-determined, vs. what precautions may be adopted in order to prevent needless deaths of so many individuals? Is it too fatalistic to say - this was all pre-ordained, this was God’s Will? Through such a perspective, do we run the risk of absolving ourselves of the blame that would otherwise fall upon the relevant housing authorities - for example, if the Ministry of Housing Affairs (or whatever it is called) had bothered to ensure that all houses constructed in Bam post-1990 followed earthquake-proof codes, then perhaps those lives could have been saved? Or was it all pre-destined anyways so what any mortal might have done, would not have made one iota of difference?

i KNOW i make no sense whatsoever. Well it makes sense in my own head but i can’t articulate it.

Please everyone while we are at it, don’t forget to include the people of Iran in your prayers, including the families of those who lost their loved ones especially the kids.

nadia i think its a mix. when you do something, you should give it your best shot. if something bad happens in the future it is Allah's will. but one shud really try their best. thats a form of jihad. if you did a bad job in the first place though you know it in your heart. there r those tho who always self criticise n underestimate themselves so by saying that it was Allah's will one atleast can put the event behind, otherwise one might keep obsessing over it which is unhealthy n counter productive. there shud be a balance between the two.

I have this book about fate in Islam. It's fairly decent. Perhaps I will take some time to type out some excerpts and send you a PM Nadia, insha'Allah. I will try not to be lazy about it and PM you soon. Insha'Allah.smile

True…Whatever is destined, is destined by Allah :swt:…These people who died were meant to die this way…If the authorities in Iran had made the entire area earthquake proof, maybe a few hundred would have died…But those hundred that would have died, would have died because it was predetermined by Allah :swt:…

When we go to sleep at night, we lock our doors so that no one comes in the night to kill us in our sleep, and if we don’t lock the doors, and someone does kill us, it was predetermined…And if we do lock our doors and the killer can’t enter the house, then it was our time to live…

Survival is the number one priority for a Muslim…A life is precious and measures must be taken to safeguard that life, however that does not mean that by safeguarding ourselves we have escaped Allah :swt:'s decree of dying at that time, it is simply that the precaution taken was part of the decree for one not to die at that particular time…

Example would be suicide…If a person decides to kill himself, was that a decree by Allah :swt: for him to die that way? Absolutely…The person killing himself had the option of safeguarding himself…It was only himself who decided not to practice it…And we know what happens to people who kill themselves…

But unlike suicide, this was a natural disaster which struck this unfortunate city…If the authorities had done all they could to save all these lives, that too would have been part of the decree and the authorities not doing anything was also part of the decree…Although they had an option of taking precautions…

A ruler is responsible for the lives of the people under his care…He must make them secure not only from disasters but from elements that would seek to hurt those under his stewardship from inside as well as outside which includes crimes and attacks from foreign countries…Failing to so, reduces the chances of survival for those under his care…

Allah helps those who help themselves…

I believe I will leave it off here as not to confuse you, but this is what my extremely limited understanding has to offer…Hope it makes even a little sense…:smiley:

Wallahoalam…

Munni, That would be fantastic, thank you. If it's too much bother to type the book out though, would it be possible for you to scan some of its more interesting pages? Just wondering, if you didn't feel like spending so much time typing that all out... Thanks for the offer, i really appreciate that. Thank you.

Irem, Good points.

if something bad happens in the future it is Allah's will.<<

What if something good happens? Is that also Allah's Will?

Lajawab, No of course you made sense. Thank you my friend for taking the time to type all those thoughts out.

Let's say for a second that you are in the shoes of the Iranian authorities. Let's say that, ten years ago you were on the board of the Council for Housing Affairs of Bam. Let's say you voted against a motion to implement earthquake-proof construction codes for the residents of Bam. Why? Because you wanted to spend that money somewhere else, there was a budget deficit and you thought it would be wiser to re-allocate that money somewhere else. You made the decision at the time based upon what you thought was most prudent and wise. Theek hai? Ten years later in December 2003, you wake up one morning and you find out that there's been this awful awful earthquake in Bam. Would you even partially blame yourself for it? Would you feel guilty? Or would you, as a devout and conscientious Muslim think, "My God it's absolutely awful what happened. Allah's Will manifested itself." i mean, where would you personally draw the line? How far do you place the blame at your feet and how far do you swallow what occurred and say - jaisay Allah ko manzoor.

Y'know... if i was in the shoes of those housing officials, i would feel pretty damn bad right now. i understand manifestly that everyone's death is pre-ordained. Period. No ifs ands buts about that. i stated this in one of the first lines of my initial post.

When a natural disaster of this scale occurs, you cannot simply wipe off the deaths of 20,000 people without feeling a tinge of guilt for the part you yourself played. What must be going through those officials' hearts - i cannot even begin to imagine and i don't want to. So to some extent, we ourselves are responsible are we not?

ugh. i make no sense again. Maybe i just need some sleep :(

nadia yup totally

You are right Nadiaji, the same disaster took place in Gujarat, deaths rate was same.
But in USA during any earth quake the death toll is around hundreds. It is because the states policy is always ready with the precautions.

‘earth quakes are natural, but the high death toll after is unnatural’ I heard these words on a tv discussion during Gujarat disaster/
if we have to blame god, means god is more familiar with Americans.

Its such a soup of things, isnt it? Theres the fact that Allah has foreknowledge of everything that could happen, theres the multiple assertions of man's free will and responsibility for action in the Quran, theres varying degrees of pre-determination depending on what blend of the faith you follow.

As far as foreknowledge goes, picture a world without Allah's foreknowledge, operating on the principles this world does. Right begets right, wrong likewise, if not in this then in the subsequent. Good, wise actions lead to better lives. Add to this Allah's knowledge of every right and wrong that happens, change nothing else. How is the resultant world any different with regards to our own actions?

As far as predetermination goes, this is likely to differ vastly across sects, within scholars within sects. What makes most sense to me is Ali's explanation where he asked a man to lift one foot, the man did. He asked him to lift the other, he couldnt. And Ali said thus is man's power. What we do is bounded by our circumstances, the conditions we're born into, everything beyond our control and only within the control of Allah.

I guess it makes sense for me to think of it in terms of a "Choose your own ending" book. Where you get depends on your own decisions, but all of your decisions are in that book, that book that Allah wrote for you.

But in the end thats what it all boils down to. how you rationalise things. those wishing for closure, for whatever reason, always find it easy to state the obvious.."It happened with the will of Allah". So would it, if we were to hang you for your incompetence.

i doubt the existence of pre-determined states as is adopted by many ppl.

Of course, certain things are given (like the fact that the Earth rotates, that you have genes, that there is gravity): let's say the ONLY things -in my view- which are predetermined are the (physical) laws of nature. All other things are or cud be changeable.

i don't believe in predetermined states or destiny or qismat.......i think apart from the physcial laws of nature (of which some might still not been known to us) all things shud be changeable

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Munni: *
I have this book about fate in Islam. It's fairly decent. Perhaps I will take some time to type out some excerpts and send you a PM Nadia, insha'Allah. I will try not to be lazy about it and PM you soon. Insha'Allah.*smile

[/QUOTE]
I would like u to paste it here rather than PM to Nadia:-).. I guess it's better to be shared publically :)..

I was trying to get a URL for an article for you, but the webmaster hasnt completed that section.

But the issue of Divine fate and predestination is always a hot one and has been for many centuries as it is so intimately linked with other concepts (e.g Ajl min allah), which in turn all affect our accountability.

It was at the time when the Greeks entered the islamic lands, and started asking many questions to the muslim folk with regards to accountability. After all, if everything is the will of allah, then why are we sinful, and if everything isnt the will of allah, then why are certain events beyond our sphere of control?

And there are ayahs in the qur'an (sorry dont have the references with me) where allah relates to us about the issue.

Unfortunately, when the Greeks asked many inquisitive questions, and rightly so, the muslims presented a very 'reactionary' answer, which reflected a very confused debate rather than a proper uncovering of the truth, and therefore alot of the text you will find today, is based upon this confused debate, rather than a decisive confirmation of the truth. i.e it was a quick attempt on behlaf of the muslims to satisfy the questioner rather than to study the subject rigorously.

in very very brief terms, there are 2 points to be noted (and please note, im regurgitating this from memory, if i had the ayahs with me, that would make life easier).

Man has a sphere of control. Therefore any action he performs will always be within this sphere of control for which he is accountable. Such as killing someone with a knife.
But in life, we also face things (Qada) which are beyond our sphere of control, and these are which are Allah's will, for which we are NOT accountable. For example, if i was holding a knife in my hand, and someone was to accidentally fall onto my knife and die, then of course, im not accountable for that because it was beyond my control.

as i said, thats a very brief and quick overview of the concept.

But in response to your question, i.e are we accountable for the deaths in Iran, could we have made stronger houses etc?

Even if we had the strongest walls, if those people were destined to die, then they would, as its Allah's will (qada), however, the important thing to note is that, had we provisioned with appropriate measures, we would be rewardable for our efforts, and thus would be at peace that we did as much as we could within our sphere of control. After that, it would be 'unjust' of (astagfarullah) Allah (Swt) to hold us responsible for such a calamity.

A similar event that took place in Algeria, where many were killed due to the weak foundation. Now, Algeria is very close to the EU, and the EU suffers from no such problems. This isnt because earthquakes are uncommon in EU, but the rulers arent prepared to spend the money in Algeria to strengthen the foundations , so of course, allah(swt) will question them on the day of judgement, as being a ruler of a nation is a great responsibility.

The issue at hand then, is not a case of what can we do after an earthquake takes place and how much money can we spend in healing the lives of those that are broken, but what measures can we take to prevent such atrocities taking place in the first place.

and the answer to that is KHILAFAH !!!! - JOKE !!! (Sorry couldnt resist, seems like Khilafah is the answer to everything hai na? even toothache :p)

But on a serious note, our rulers (in general) have the money and the resources to plough their efforts in such a task, its a case of soceity waking up from her slumber and holding these people responsible for their lack of concern for the people they rule over...ke nahi?

sorry - Just realised that ive pretty much re-iterated what Lajawab said.

Iran lies in a complicated tectonic region. The arabain plate is moving towards north-east into Iran which causes earthquakes in Iran every now and then. Everything is not connected with God, Hadiths and Sunnahs.

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to write out all those replies. They were extremely thoughtful and clearly took some time. i appreciate that greatly.

[quote]
**Even if we had the strongest walls, if those people were destined to die, then they would, as its Allah's will (qada), however, the important thing to note is that, had we provisioned with appropriate measures, we would be rewardable for our efforts, and thus would be at peace that we did as much as we could within our sphere of control. After that, it would be 'unjust' of (astagfarullah) Allah (Swt) to hold us responsible for such a calamity.

A similar event that took place in Algeria, where many were killed due to the weak foundation. Now, Algeria is very close to the EU, and the EU suffers from no such problems. This isnt because earthquakes are uncommon in EU, but the rulers arent prepared to spend the money in Algeria to strengthen the foundations , so of course, allah(swt) will question them on the day of judgement, as being a ruler of a nation is a great responsibility.

...] But on a serious note, our rulers (in general) have the money and the resources to plough their efforts in such a task, its a case of soceity waking up from her slumber and holding these people responsible for their lack of concern for the people they rule over...ke nahi?**
[/quote]

Eemo,

i believe i agree. Nice joke about the Khilafah :~D An extremely informative and thoughtful answer you gave.

Thank you everyone. i hope it cleared up my confusion regarding this issue.

Even if we had the strongest walls, if those people were destined to die, then they would, as its Allah's will (qada), <<<

arguments like these are in my opinion non-arguments,....they are empty and they cannot serve as a premisse for future discussion. It's like saying: "things that are good are good", or "the root of 1 squared is 1".

Especially in the case of "it was destined to happen cuz it was Allah's will...etc etc", such comments can only be made it retrospect......and in principle can be made of any thing u like. That's one of the reason i think that things are changeable: cuz suppose they HAD made stronger walls....what then? saying they wud die anyway is wrong! cuz in that particular event they wud NOT have died: the argument wud go like this then:

Even if we had the strongest walls, those people would probably not have destined to die, as that would have been Allahs will in that situation (qada)

Nadia, am glad if it helped clear up the situation for you.

Nescio, are you a brother ke a sister? anyway , my statement about Allah's will was purely that; a statement.
Not intended as an argument per se.

The point im trying to make, and the issue that i believe sis Nadia is most concerned about is the question of accountability. ie are we sinful for such events or not.

If you wish to re-phrase the argument to give a clearer representation of the truth, or you just prefer being more precise in your speech, then thats fine :) no qualms.

To really home in on the point of whether those people would have died if we built stronger walls etc will just keep us going round in circles forever, till the day of judgement. Lets take a step back, look at the grand scheme of things, and assess why is the question being asked in the first place. furthermore, its when the ummah get so involved in such a debate that progress comes to a complete standstill

maybe i should post a joke in the jokes forum?

Khilafah is the answer to everything.

Sink broken? KHILAFAH !!!

failed your exams? KHILAFAH !!

Missed your train? KHILAFAHH !!

Dialled the wrong phone number? KHILAFAH !!!

oh no....wait.... do it desi style

KhilafAT !! KhilafATTTT ka zamana hai.

Someone wanna do me a pic with speech bubbles? like the ones i posted in images section? i think it would be cool. Send it out to loads of people.

I know it would come across as real comical, but in reality it would be sending out a really serious message. kya khayal hai?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Anwaar Qureshi: *
I would like u to paste it here rather than PM to Nadia:-).. I guess it's better to be shared publically :)..
[/QUOTE]

I'd rather PM it to anyone who would like the PM, because I have seen far too many threads in this forum go off-topic and result in it being closed.