Weapons R Us

Society Military and Strategic Issues
1

Nice little late-summer party going on in London at the moment - all these beautiful democratic countries like the UK, Israel (of course we all KNOW that Israel is the only democratic country in that backwater, illiterate region), and the US, exporting arms to other democratic countries like… Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and er… Israel. Exporting arms to dictatorial govts. so that these govts. can then utilize them on innocent civilians - then we will wonder oh-so-innocently why “they hate us”.

A decent bit of revenue to be made, mind you, from democratic countries exporting arms to brutal regimes. Hypocrisy has never been grander i think.

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The smaller the country they hail from, the more sparkling their regimental insignia and general’s stars. Gold stars, medals and golden braids for the four officers from Botswana. The silver cluster on the shoulders of the South Korean navy commander was almost blinding (even though the rest of his uniform has the distinct look of discount windcheater). And finally the thick wool of UK officers, most with understated woven or gun metal black insignia.

“Come on Justin, you must see the gunner’s position in this one”, says a ruddy-faced Australian brigadier, ordering one of his officers into a brand new Piranha III armoured fighting vehicle featuring a BAE Systems AMS II turret with a 120mm mortar.

Is there a new tank smell?

There is, not quite like a new car, but more of oil and metal.

The commander’s seat holds little that would faze an experienced video gamer. A dust proof keyboard, a flat screen monitor and a joystick - now where is the target?

Over at Lockheed Martin, the prospective target trains to fire back. A visitor shoulders the Javelin anti-tank missile, zeros in on the computer-generated target, a press of the thumb - fire and forget … and kill in 1.34 minutes.

The video screen shows a faraway tank burst into flames.

“The US army has a 95% reliability rate with this system”, boasts Lockheed’s Doug Terrell, and points to the anti-tank weapon’s use in Afghanistan and the Iraq war.

“Could you wrap up one for me to take home now?”

“We are not allowed to sell the Javelin, you can buy it only through the US army foreign sales office”, Mr Terrell tells me.

Plus there is the little issue of the price tag. Killing a tank (and its crew) with a Javelin missile will set you back $85,000, plus $135,000 for the portable and reusable launch unit. And anyway, this is not a sales show.

“We are just here to raise awareness, exchange business cards” and meet industrial partners, says Mr Terrell.

This mantra is repeated everywhere.

“We are not here to sell things, we are meeting friends and get a feel for trends in the sector,” says Norbert Frank of German defence giant Rheinmetall. “Customers just get a better feel for what we have on offer, after all you can’t bring a tank to a sales meeting,” he adds.

And so the customers take a closer look at what’s on offer.

At the stand of Sabre Ballistics, a salesman explains to a Ukrainian defence attache the “element of surprise” gained by using silencers on army rifles. The officer, who does not want to be named, says he is shopping around for his country’s special forces.

At the Swiss stand, they have more than army knifes on display. A single bullet is highlighted, it is “the sniper’s choice” says RUAG of Switzerland. And the firm’s splinter hand grenades will cost you about 60 to 100 Swiss Francs a throw.

Fancy an assault rifle? An Austrian Steyr AVG-A1 is yours for about 2,000 euros, depending on the specifications. How about the Shipka submachine gun from Arsenal of Bulgaria? A snip at $300. The Glock 19, standard pistol of many armies and most UK police forces, will sell for around £250. Body armour from Point Blank will cost you between $1,300 and $2,600 - depending on the “threat level” you have to prepare for. At the higher end, a Warrior fighting vehicle from BAE Systems will cost you about £1m, but running costs over 10 years will be a multiple of that.

And where do the weapons go to?

Ah - now it is getting delicate. “Our customers are in the Far East and we hope to find new markets in the UK and NATO as well”, says one maker of small arms and a history for selling to trouble spots, and then hastily explains Bulgaria’s new strict export controls.

Only one firm is not afraid at all to name its customers. The Imperial Sword Company makes ceremonial swords for officers. Greece has just ordered 1,300 swords “probably to gear up for the Olympics”, says sales director Richard Giddings.

The soldiers from Botswana are talking about 3,000 swords for their officer corps. And there are no export controls to worry about.

Ceremonial swords have a blunt edge.]()

2

Nadia, when you pick up these numbers do you even read the tables and graphs carefully and analyse them in the larger context of trade and industry?

USA a $7 trillion ($7,000 billions) economy and exported only $9 billion of weapons, fraction of a percent. I bet you top 4 computer companies exported more chips and computer components, that enhances life, to the world than $9 billions. Another equivalent amount of medicine and medical equipment, that saves millions of lives, was also exported in the same year. here is another fact, the medicine was sold at fraction of the price it sells to its own citizens. same goes for many other exporting countries in the west. where is your applause for that fair and fair lady?

3

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ChannMahi: *
USA a $7 trillion ($7,000 billions) economy and exported **only $9 billion* of weapons, fraction of a percent. I bet you top 4 computer companies exported more chips and computer components, that enhances life, to the world than $9 billions.
[/quote]

"Only" $9 billion? wow, i guess i should applaud the American govt. exporting 'only' $9 billion worth of munitions, cluster bombs and arms to govts. like Saudi Arabia - hey we know that they only use torture equipment for aesthetic purposes. The Saudi govt. doesn't actually torture its own citizens, right, despite whatever that leftist org Amnesty says. Don't we feel happier already, now we can all sleep with a lighter conscience. "Only" $9 billion - yippee.

[quote]
here is another fact, the medicine was sold at fraction of the price it sells to its own citizens.
[/quote]

oh really? That's also commendable. Now how about providing free anti-retrovirals to pregnant African mothers with HIV?

4

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChannMahi: *
Nadia, when you pick up these numbers do you even read the tables and graphs carefully and analyse them in the larger context of trade and industry?

USA a $7 trillion ($7,000 billions) economy and exported only $9 billion of weapons, fraction of a percent.
[/QUOTE]

The bottom line is measured in human lives, not percentages of american gdp. What is in fact less than a percentage of US GDP is a lot more for the buyer, in terms of the buyers GDP. And also consider the fact that this is merely the amount US exports. You do have to factor in the amount US factors in to fund its own armed forces as well, which in effect are doing the same job that the US arms other dictatorial nations to do.
But lets decide to ignore that completely for a minute, and concentrate on the least that countries like America and UK can do. Im sure they can at least hold back sales of weapons to any country that may be experiencing simmering tensions with their neighbors. Helping such countries stock themselves with the latest weaponry only further solidifies the possibility of those weapons being used sooner or later against innocents.

I personally appreciate policies employed by countries like Germany, Holland and several other European countries with half a conscience, where they refuse to sell arms to any country that is sitting on a hotspot.

5

It is America's fault that palces like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia want F-16's? WHy isn't the onus placed on the buyer. Surely, if they are spending a larger share of the GDP on weapons than on healthcare than US is on supplying the weapons to a globallist of countries, then the fault lies with the buyers. Say no to f;16' and the $9B would go down to $0. Let's all work towards that.

6

Pakistan Ordnance Factories is trying to sell its wares at DSEI 2003. Hopefully they'll land a fat juicy contract ... they already export bullets to the UK and mortar bombs to France. Inshallah they'll manage to attract more customers this year. Pakistan's arms exports currently bring in around $50,000,000 per year, but the market out there is a huge one and has got to be tapped further.

7

US arms exports at only $9B sounds too little. Some classification issue here. Did they exclude fighter jets exports, etc? May be just weaponry, not all arms.

The unfortunate part is not that this trade exists but the reality that we the people need the trade and the goods.

8

Nadia,

Let's count some of the flaws in your arguements.

1) Weapons are used against innocent civilians. Somewhere in there we may have forgotten that there is a legitimate right of self-defense, as well as a deterrrent effect to a well armed country.

2)Look around at pictures of war zones. The most indiscriminate killers are the ubiquitous ak-47, manufactured in formerly communist countries. Second is PRG's, which require around a second grade education to shoot, and then there are land mines that can kill for years. Virtually every country has the industrial capability to produce landmines. Look at what really kills people, it is nasty dirty wars that grind on for years to the point where no one remembers how it started.

3) You may not like cluster munitions, nobody does. But the narrow mountain passes between North and South Korea can be hit with only a few and a North Korean invasion would be stopped dead. They do have military value.

4) Do you think that something has changed since ancient times? The advance of modern weapons has ben going on since the invention of gunpowder.

5) Lastly, it is human beings that use the guns. Take the weapons away and they would kill each other with rocks and spears. Modern wars are MUCH less lethal than 50 years ago. In WWII, in one battle, the Russians lost over 600,000 men. The weapons that are sold as multi-billion dollar systems generally go unused.

The liberal left somehow thinks that the weapons cause the wars. Nothing could be further from the truth. Political failures, lack of compromise, lack of leadership, lack of will, anger, vengance, revenge, good old fashioned hate, jealousy, tribalism, religion, and land are the causes of war. Fix those and the weapons become irrelevant.

9

The U.S. needs to become more responsible in who it sells weapons to. Sales to those countries with gross human rights violations should not take place as they currently do.

10

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by TomSawyer: *
....
The unfortunate part is not that this trade exists but the reality that we the people need the trade and the goods.
[/QUOTE]

So sad and true.

11

all I want to know is that if Israel is in a position to export arms herself why the hell does it need my tax money as charity in the form of arms every year?

12

same reason that egypt and pakistan get mine. Learn to live with it..PA

13

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
all I want to know is that if Israel is in a position to export arms herself why the hell does it need my tax money as charity in the form of arms every year?
[/QUOTE]

to be able to manufacture those arms.

14

Pakistan has made quiet some progress in arm dealings in the past decade or so. Does anyone has stats on that?

15

Even though Eisenhower was a general who fought the WW-II himself, he cautioned the world, and American public in particular, against the investment in arms! Here is what he had to say in 1953 ...
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hopes of its children... This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging from a cross of iron."

16

OG,

1) Weapons are used against innocent civilians. Somewhere in there we may have forgotten that there is a legitimate right of self-defense, as well as a deterrrent effect to a well armed country.
"Self-defense"? What self-defense does a country in South Africa's geographical position possibly need? Who is planning on invading South Africa? Its poverty-stricken African neighbours? Why does Saudi Arabia "need" arms imports worth $4.3bn? What "self-defense" does that constitute?

The most indiscriminate killers are the ubiquitous ak-47.... Look at what really kills people, it is nasty dirty wars that grind on for years to the point where no one remembers how it started.
Not only the AK47s but also landmines.

Regarding "nasty dirty wars that grind on for years" - you are absolutely right, Afghanistan being a prime example.

4) Do you think that something has changed since ancient times? The advance of modern weapons has ben going on since the invention of gunpowder.
When did i ever state otherwise. In ancient times however, we did not have weapons that can cause generations down the road to be paying the price with amputated feet, hands, and other body parts. It's not only the current generation but future generations who will have to pay the price for this arms industry.

5) Lastly, it is human beings that use the guns.
So that means it is alright to give every human being the right to hold a gun?

*The liberal left somehow thinks that the weapons cause the wars. Nothing could be further from the truth. Political failures, lack of compromise, lack of leadership, lack of will, anger, vengance, revenge, good old fashioned hate, jealousy, tribalism, religion, and land are the causes of war. Fix those and the weapons become irrelevant. *
i am afraid you have really lost me, OG. Don't you see the link between pouring arms and weapons into Afghanistan during the 1980s, and the conditions of its volatile society today? Somehow or the other, exporting all those arms to Afghanistan was the correct move in your opinion ? Exporting handcuffs, manacles, arms to a government like Saudi Arabia - is that justifiable in any sense?

17

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:k:

18

Nadia,

"Exporting handcuffs, manacles, arms to a government like Saudi Arabia - is that justifiable in any sense?"

Get real. Every police force everywhere in the world owns manacles and handcuffs. We cannot protect the Saudi's from themselves. Can you use electrcity to torture someone? Sure, let's not export car batteries either! As a matter of fact, Alternating current is dangerous too, no more electricity! You can cane the bottom of someone's feet, no more reeds! You can beat someone with a phonebook and leave no marks. Take away their phone books! The Swiss own the same manacles, what REALLY makes those manacles different in the hands of the Saudi's?

I have no particular love for the Saudi's, but they have the money, and the Middle East is a very dangerous place. When the F-16's are used against thier own people I will be concerned. Then we can withhold replacement parts.

Did the proliferation of arms in Afghanistan (all Russian made by the way) CAUSE the Afghans to fight? They could have chosen peace on any given day.

In case you haven't noticed there are wars all over Africa. Why would South Africa want a well equipped army. Well duh.

Please look carefully at the landmine issue. Most landmines are produced indigenously. Kashmir is becoming a wasteland of landmines, and neither Pakistan nor India imported a single one. The US has deemphasised mines for years as dangerous to our own troops. The only exception to this would be the DMZ in Korea.

19

:wave:

Take a look at what I already posted in this thread… just $50 million a year.

The problem is that right now we’re only exporting large volume, low value military equipment like bullets and mortar shells.

Pakistan’s already shut itself out of part of the market, by declaring a moratorium on exporting landmines (though cluster bombs are still exported - we previously sold cluster bombs to Turkey, and later helped Turkey to establish cluster bomb manufacturing facilities, following a US cluster bomb embargo on Turkey in the aftermath of revelations that Turkey was cluster-bombing the Kurds).

Other, higher tech, items such as depleted uranium ammunition are not being offered by export either, presumably because all production of these in Pakistan is being used to build up Pakistan Army stockpiles.

The big boost for exports will be when Pakistan starts selling larger quantities of the higher volume goods, such as aircraft (some sales already done), tanks (looking for buyers), and hunter-killer submarines (still a couple of years off in the future).

20

Thanks Maddy!

One of my friend's father was inchrage of the Tank factory at Wah/Taxilla. Once I had a talk with him & he was bitter about everything dependent on outside parts, and the supply fluctuates with sanctions. Do you know if Pakistan had made any improvement by being more diverse in their technology & more independent in supply? I sure hope the tanks they are planning to sell are not as uncomfortable as the one I rode around. The thing was more loud than a C-130.

I always hear how North Korea is armed to teeth. And that they have more bullets than loaf of bread. So, do they also sell stuff? Where do they rank? I expected them to be in the list of exporters but I guess they only import?!