Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

^
1-I'm not a hafiz-e-Quran
2-this thread is not about quranic verses revealed in honor of certain companions that a whole seperate discussion
3-please dont derail this thread, by bringing the usual bs
4-If you know of any weak traditions to share about ALi then do so otherwise avoid this threAD

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

No offense to everybody else.

When Quran has called Ali Nafs of Rasool Allah s.a.w then there is no need to make up fabricated ahaadith to bring Ali a.s above abubakar or Umar. So dont write stuff that is unnecessary and you wont get un necessary responses. Lets stay of topic after this.

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

i am only aware of shias relying on sunni narrations, its been narrated by the companions, the Prophet SAW took with him to mubahila - Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussein may Allah be pleased with all of them.

the muslim view is that the liars could have followers with them, in invoking curses on each other and the consequences of it, but it to do it with your blood relatives is a sign of conviction. the christians who disputed the divinity vs prophethood status of Isa would have been met by the Prophet SAW and his familly including the two children. the mubahila did not actually take place, the christians pulled out. however, stated for the benefit of shias, the whole ummah was at stake from our side, and from the christian side their specific community was at stake

the Prophet SAW atleast sometimes sent blood relatives, early, into battle as well to show this facet of conviction to the enemy.

heres a brothers response to shias running off with one verse, and leaving the rest:

Salam Aleykum, The Twelver Shiites often use several verses from the Quran to prove something, Here's a fun reply to two of those things,

First is the Verse of Mubahala, 61st verse of Al'Imran :

Then whoever argues with you about it after [this] knowledge has come to you - say, "Come, let us call our sons and your sons, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then supplicate earnestly [together] and invoke the curse of Allah upon the liars [among us]."

The Shiites concentrate on the "Ourselves" part, the Arabic word is Nafs(Self)/Anfousana(Ourselves) and they say that this proves that Ali,fatima,ect... are the Same SELF as the prophet PBUH, meaning same Being, this is due to poor Persian understanding of the word NAFS conveniently mixed with the Ghulu of the twelvers, So The Quran replies to the shiite Ghulat by this verse:

Chapter 3 verse 164:

لقد من الله على المؤمنين إذ بعث فيهم رسولا من أنفسهم يتلو عليهم آياته ويزكيهم ويعلمهم الكتاب والحكمة وإن كانوا من قبل لفي ضلال مبين

Certainly did Allah confer [great] favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error. [3:164]

Thus according to this and the poor understanding of the Twelvers, All of The Muslims are from the SELF/NAFS of the prophet PBUH thus we all have equal claim to Wilayah.

and

[9:128]

لقد جاءكم رسول من أنفسكم عزيز عليه ما عنتم حريص عليكم بالمؤمنين رءوف رحيم

There has certainly come to you a Messenger from among yourselves. Grievous to him is what you suffer; [he is] concerned over you and to the believers is kind and merciful. [9:128]

by the way the word used for "Yourselves" is "Anfusikum" same as verse of Mubahala.

Also you can use these:

Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves who will recite to them Your verses and teach them the Book and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise." [2:129]

It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error -[62:2]

The Other Verse is that of Tatheer, verse 33 chapter 33 which is talking about the wives of the Prophet PBUH, In it Allah says he will "Purify them" "Li Youtahirakum" and Tatheer means purifying, The Twelvers claim this is talking about the Imams and Fatima ONLY and that's what Ahlulbayt means to them, they say Allah wants to purify them meaning they are infallible So let's see how the Quran replies to them again:

first one is: (Maid'ah:6)

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلاةِ فَاغْسِلُواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُواْ بِرُؤُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَيْنِ وَإِن كُنتُمْ جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّرُواْ وَإِن كُنتُم مَّرْضَى أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاءَ أَحَدٌ مِّنكُم مِّنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لامَسْتُمُ النِّسَاء فَلَمْ تَجِدُواْ مَاء فَتَيَمَّمُواْ صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُواْ بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُم مِّنْهُ مَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيَجْعَلَ عَلَيْكُم مِّنْ حَرَجٍ وَلَكِن يُرِيدُ لِيُطَهِّرَكُمْ وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ

O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He(Allah) would purify you(Ye who believe) and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks. (5:6)

according to Twelver Shiite logic this means all believers are infallible.

Or Chapter 8 verse 11:

اذ يغشيكم النعاس امنة منه وينزل عليكم من السماء ماء ليطهركم به ويذهب عنكم رجز الشيطان وليربط على قلوبكم ويثبت به الاقدام

[Remember] when He overwhelmed you with drowsiness [giving] security from Him and sent down upon you from the sky, rain by which to purify you and remove from you the evil [suggestions] of Satan and to make steadfast your hearts and plant firmly thereby your feet. [8:11]

this means we're all infallible... and just as a side note the verses using the Word Pure or "Tatheer" well I found many of them talking about Wives/Women:

And give good tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, "This is what we were provided with before." And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally.[2:25]

And they ask you about menstruation. Say, "It is harm, so keep away from wives during menstruation. And do not approach them until they are pure. And when they have purified themselves, then come to them from where Allah has ordained for you. Indeed, Allah loves those who are constantly repentant and loves those who purify themselves."[2:222]

Say, "Shall I inform you of [something] better than that? For those who fear Allah will be gardens in the presence of their Lord beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally, and purified spouses and approval from Allah . And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants -[3:15]

But those who believe and do righteous deeds - We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide forever. For them therein are purified spouses, and We will admit them to deepening shade.[4:57]

Salam Aleykum,

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

aqeel bro, no need to chuck stones in a gutter.......just enjoy the "analysis"....

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

again off-topic
u missed the whole point of "fabricated" vs "unauthenticated" traditions

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

Thanks for ur valuable information bro.

I usually hear about the "Shujaat" of Ali, and about the bugz that other sahabis nurtured due to this quality of Ali. Pl let me know about its authenticity. And is it true that while other sahabis used to run during the hard times of wars, it was only Ali who fought bravely and was lone FATEH in all wars?

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

salam
I'm not sure if its all valuable yet, still waiting for the hadith experts to give their input here !
Its true that ALi and uthman were hated by certain sahaba because of tribal reasons or events that transpired later in the caliphate, I dont know of any who hated Ali because of his bravery.

[QUOTE]
And is it true that while other sahabis used to run during the hard times of wars, it was only Ali who fought bravely and was lone FATEH in all wars?
[/QUOTE]

No not at all, but the extent of it is debatable as pro-Shia sources will exaggerate the role of Ali and pro-uthmani sources will downplay the role of ALi in Ghazwas.Generally though seerah and maghazi sources are written by individuals who dont have such clear bias and they give a balanced role of ALi and other companions.Its clear though that Ali played a pivotal role in battles of Badr & Khandaq and also in the campaign in Yemen ( largely overlooked in popular memory).But a lot of other sahaba also valiantly fought in the Ghazwas, and the islamic conquest of arabia was in no way solely due to Ali.

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

the judgement on the Sahaba has been given in the Quran, as has the Judgement on Prophets AS who left their posts. the arguement that sahaba were not brave enough is not even from the valley of ants, especially considering the shiite acknowledged seerah of most of the imams, especially their current,present imam mahdi

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

where is aqeel ? still waiting for your "quranic explanantion" ...is this from book of fatima ?
Or a stork brought you back an areeza ?

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

^Salam brother, All that hard work and research on Islamic history regarding companion of Prophet (S) yet so little knowledge of Qur’an :hoonh:

Maybe its my fault, Instead of directing you to shiachat to know about the madhabe-e-Ahlebait (as) I should have told you back then to begin your journey from the very first massage conveyed by Prophet (S). The most important concept in Islam which is “Taw’heed (he Oneness os Allah (SWT))” in the light of teachings of Prophet (S) and his Tahir Progeny (as).

Edit: And regarding the point you made in post #5 who needs Traditions authentic or otherwise when Qur’an is there to testify Ali’s (as) superiority.

BTW I noticed you wrote** Karam’ Allah Wajho** after Ali’s (as) name? care explain?

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

Right guys, just a little reminder to keep it clean and not to resort to bashing anyone. Thank you!

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

walaikum salam bhaijan
aray janab aap ko kiya zaroorat thi apna qeemti waqat nikalnay ki
aap tu meray mohsin hain mein kabhi aap ka ahsan nahi bohla sakta hoin regardless of our difference of opinion.I hope you dont take offence to the coarse language I used for the ghali kay kuttay, maaf kijiay ga !

shiachat is a sideshow brother real eye opener was having access to researh in biographies and maghazi

Lol Hozoor aap say kiya chuphana ! chalyay lets talk about how authentic is the belief that Prophets family never worshiped idols

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

Its the low hanging fruits fit for lowly plebeians like me :bummer:
Quran aur us ki baseerat tu ham jaisoo ko kaha hoti hai

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

[QUOTE]
Edit: And regarding the point you made in post #5 who needs Traditions authentic or otherwise when Qur'an is there to testify Ali's (as) superiority
[/QUOTE]

I did say earlier " this thread is not about quranic verses revealed in honor of certain companions that a whole seperate discussion"

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

All the praises and thanks be to Allah, Who has guided us to this, never could we have found guidance, were it not that Allah had guided us!" | Quran, 007:043.

You totally missed the point brother. BTW Allah (SWT) has already condemned those, who deviated from deen-e-Ibrahimi by name in Qur’an so why bother.

Thats why brother, Allah (SWT) says in Qur’an:

“Ask the men of knowledge (Ahl’Al Zikr) if you have no knowledge.” **( فاسألوا أهل الذكر * إن كنتم لا تعلمون ) **| Al’ambia and Al-Nahl

All you need is to knock the right door to ask.

BTW This just reminded me of saying of Imam Ali (as) “Salooni Salooni Qabl an Tafqedooni” :slight_smile:

Then maybe you are on a wrong forum. Most of people here know more about Bahishti Zewer (no offense to anyone) then the life of Imam Ali (as).

Just a word of advice brother. May be its time to prioritize and put an hold on this research of biographies and start studying more about Allah (mainly concept of Taw’heed) and the status of His Prophet (s) according to both sunni and shia islam.

After all the first is THE Creator and the latter is HIS Best Creation. Every other thing, be it sahabi for a sunnis or Imam for a shia, is secondary and do not hold any status with out them.

May Allah guide us all and help you gain more knowledge.

wasalam





  - *"(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, 
these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly."  [Quran: 17:71]*
  - *"Whosoever dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of the ignorance (Jahiliyyah)." The Prophet of Islam (S)*
  -
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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

Next time when you visit Khana e Kaaba dont forget to see the SHIGAF in it, thats where the wall opened for his mother to enter in. Probably this video can help you Shigaf-e-Kaba 12.05.2011 - YouTube

All companions are respectful and checking which hadith is strong and which is weak is not something which we can do. We need scholars for that…so kindly no offence but do not enjoy discussions without knowledge.

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Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

The first three caliphs are superior to the fourth- -- fabricated.

Ashara mubashara hadith- def fabricated.

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

'I
am the house of wisdom and 'Ali
is its door'. Sahih (or Jami` or Sunan) , al-
Tirmidhi (d. 279 AH), p. 141

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Re: Weak Traditions associated with Ali ibn Abitalib KaramAllahwajho

my friend
the path to tawheed is al risalah
and the path to al risalah is awliyas