We both firm to marry but not both families

Lifestyle Relationships
, , , ,
1

Dear Fellows,

I and my fiance need help. I describe the story first:

Although, I already sent following situation somedays ago but I am describing it from start with latest updates:

One and a half year ago, two of the families decided to engage me with her. I was asked before going to start the talks with the other family.

Her father(Professor) and his family became agree on the proposal and almost after 6 months a formal engagement was done, in December 2007. Good time passed in 7-8 months and during that both of families had no confliction between them. After that, some missunderstanding arised between two families. Elders of the both families disconnected their communication with each other rather to solve those problems by sitting together.

Actually, her parent asked for immidiate marriage but my parents replied that thay wanted to perform another duty alongwith that marriage, that was in shape of marriage of my sisters. My in-laws refused to accept this and said to keep the things independent of each other. Professor also foreced my side to show a timeline for the program. My elders told them that it was difficult to present a timeline right at that moment as they are searching bridegrooms for my sisters and didnot know that how much time it would take. That point was taken very serious by the both families.

After that discussion, the communication went into jam mode and nobody from each of the family tried to contact each other. Heads of each family kept expectation from the other side to contact. (Now a days both of the sides provides this as a justification that they had waited).

In the meanwhile I and my fiance connected through phone and decided not to leave each other in such situation because we both had no guilty in all the matter(We are still firm). Our point of view was that we both are well educated (I am MSc(CS) and she is MA (Islamic St)+M.Ed.) ane well aware about what is right and what is wrong.

The 3rd sources (neighbours and other people) double crossed both sides and played a very negative and harmful role and passed negative remarks toward both sides. That communication was completely based on those lies. I tried to communicate that thing to heads of each family but no body tried to understand my requests.

After 4-5 month of our engagement my parents broken our engagement. I and my fiance showed our reactions and anger immidiately to our respective families. But we found that no one was going to understand our feelings.

After this insident, my fiance’s parents started looking an alternative for her. But she showed her disagreement with them. But her parents kept forcing her. When they could change my fiances statement they started giving mental and even physical torture to her.

I requested my elders to start talking with her family again as I wanted to get my elders prayer while doing marriage with her. Also tried to the other family to convince for re-connection, but faced high walls of ego as a great hurdle in the way of our life.

My convinced some of my family members and sent to my in-laws to appoligise and re-connect (as per the request of my fiance), but my in-laws did not even received my family members and returned them without listening to them. professor told them they had made a commitment to marry their daughter somewhere else so it is not possible to reconnect with us. (Clearly it is against the will of my fiance)

I and my fiance are still hopeful that we’ll get married with each other. We are just looking around for the safest way.

I’ll appreciate if someone will provide a workable and solid solution. Both of us don’t want to loose each other.

Regards,
Faisal

2

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

stick it out, it may take a while, but they will come around. u need to give them time. if the fiance is with u, its not a big prob

3

This is a tough situation especially when both sides are not even open to listening when any efforts at communication are being made.

Tell your parents firmly that you wish to marry this girl (if that's what you want) and that you're not interested in marrying anybody else. Encourage your parents as the "larkay walay" to make efforts to communicate with the girl's parents. This should be done face to face. Your parents should ask the girl's parents to at least listen to them one more time before deciding upon the fate of their daughter. The parents from both sides should sit together and discuss the issue..........and I don't think it would be a bad idea for you both to be a part of this meeting/discussion. It would be good for you both to sit with both sets of parents during this discussion to ensure that you both (u and girl) see everything with your eyes and hear everything with your own ears.

^This reduces the chance of "false information" being relayed by "well-meaning" parties to either you or her.

1) If you're that serious about her......tell your parents that you're not interested in any girl but her.

2) Have your parents calm down and request her parents for at least one more meeting to talk about things before making any decisions. A good point to mention to her parents is that as Muslims we should settle things peacefully and allow each other a chance for clarification. Also, it is good to start every argument with positive points/praise.....before moving to clarification.

3) A meeting should take place between both sets of parents....and **you and her **should be there during this meeting so you can see and hear the truth.

Considerations:

Keep in mind that if both families don't like each other.....then this can potentially create problems in your marriage. And the person to suffer most will be........the girl. If a girl has no respect in her susraal.....her life can become miserable. And this is chance that you will have to be prepared for if you succeed in marrying this girl. If your parents continue to hold a grudge toward her......keep in mind that you will have to support her your family gives her a hard time after marriage.

^Is that a risk and challenge you are willing to take? If so.....give the issue your best fighting shot.

4

I agree. If ur 100% sure of the girl be firm (if u waver ur parents will say 'oh, u aren't serious, u must not like her that much anyway') but also remember compromise is the key. My Mum was very against me marrying a non-desi at the beginning but now she loves the idea and thinks he's great so parents can do u-turns if u talk to them and try and convince them in the right way. Good Luck :)

5

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

You obviously need to find someone that the professor will listen to.

4:19. O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will.

There is a hadith of the Prophet (PBUH) saying that: `the virgin is to be consulted in her marriage.' Hence to marry a person against her will, i.e. forcing her, is a negation of that right.

This means that whomever her father wants to marry her off to will be commiting a sin by marrying her against her will.

Islamically, no one can force a girl into marriage so maybe you can enlist the help of a local religious leader to talk to the professor and explain that he cannot and should not marry his daughter against her will. If you know the mosque that the professor goes to (I am assuming that he at least goes to Jummah even if he is not a regular prayer) then talk to that Imam or religious leader. The only danger of this is that professor sahib might get angry about his private family business being made public so ask your fiancee who to go to.

Also, it would be helpful to know how many members of the girls side support her marrying you. If she has the majority of the family supporting you, you guys can try to get their support in convincing the father. If the whole family is supportive except the dad, you can go ahead anyway. If there is an elder like professors father or another elder that he looks upto, try to get him/her on your side.

There is one more step but this is very extreme. You can do a nikaah with all supportive family members present but not the rukhsati to use that as leverage. However, there is discussion as to whether a girl can marry without her fathers consent. If you are going to consider this option, please consult a local imam to confirm his viewpoint and also ask for references backing his opinions. I have heard imams give opinions and then when asked where it was written actually say...bazoorkon sey soona hai..as if that is authentication.

Please keep us posted and good luck..you are in a very difficult situation!

Oh..and one more thing..has your family agreed to change the issue about your sisters getting married first...or was that still a condition even though they went to meet with the professor?

Timepass - March 2013
6

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

1- Girls is with me, she dislikes her parents' latest decision of committing her marriage without consulting with her, as they already knew that she likes me very well. And they also knew about my likings

2- I tried to convince my parents but my parents did not listen me. At last I made it clear to them that I'll never be interested to marry with any girl If they'll this chance. This made hard and harsh situation at my home and they denied to accept my requests. So It is clear that I have no assistance from my home, but I have two elder brothers with me who visited professor's home a week ago.

3-I told my fiance that my parents are not agree with me, but I'll alone keep fighting to get her. I'll keep her in a separate home from my family as I can manage this. I alongwith my fiance have a firm believe that we'll handle the situation after our marriage, I'll support my wife in any difficulty after our marriage.

  1. our residential cities have 2-3 hour away from each other

  2. Her parents taken the fone back from her. so we rarely get oppertunity to talk

  3. Her father is looking so hard having remarks that my father broken that engagement and he has no guilty in that. I'm trying to take her father in communication as he is posing as a presidant of USA for me at this moment. Making him agree to talk will be great breakthrough. For that I'll call his cell tommorrow.

  4. My fiance would also have done a talk with her father today as she told me a day before. She talked with her elder brother about the matter. Her brother asked her that if she wanted to leave them for me neither he nor their parents will stop her, but she would not show her face to them again. She became worried due to such kind of emotional blackmailing.

  5. She also told me that she would call to the boy to whom her parents committed her engagment and straight forwardly deny him for marriage. So if my fiance would have taken this step. This will break the will of professor once again as she already denied a family in this way before the larest commitment. This time her parent tried to hide the contacts of new family from her so that she can't act on the same line she did previously.

7

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

The Hanafi view is that girl can marry without father’s consent but obviously not recommended. I’m pretty sure other madhabs don’t allow it tho.

‘According to the understanding of the Hanafi Madhhab,** if a mature woman contracted her marriage without the approval of her guardian to someone who is considered legally suitable (kuf’u), then the marriage is valid.’**

Source: Doesn’t the woman need her guardian’s approval to marry?

8

The issue which is causing this mess seems rather petty.

Wildhalcyon has made excellent points. Someone needs to tell the father that the marriage contract is not valid unless he seeks the permission of his daughter. And if the daughter does not want to get married, then that marriage is not valid. I have a feeling that few imams would be helpful in discussing this point with stubborn parents.....since this is a common and widely-accepted ill in Pakistan. Regardless........this important point needs to be brought up by someone whome the "Professor" respects and is more likely to listen to.

The other suggestion that Wildhalcyon made......and she's right that it's extreme........but it's something to consider. You can consider using nikkah as leverage. If the nikkah is done by an imam and trusted witnessess from the family. That would make her legally your wife. And it puts pressure on the families to give a proper wedding/rukhsati if not out of happiness.....but to preserve their reputation in society. Few desi parents would feel comfortable telling the world that their daughter ran away and got married without their presence. To cover up for this.....the parents might even resign themselves to the situation and give a proper formal send-off much to their dismay.

^However........there are are potential risks with this plan. In the event that the families don't agree to a formal wedding after the nikkah, then it does impact family reputation especially for the girl and her family. And some parents go crazy and can even physically harm their daughter. There is a potential risk of of safety for the girl as well. So two risks here: 1) destroying family reputation 2) personal safety.

9

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

Wildhalcyon, your suggestion about collecting the points and references is a great idea, although I knew that I am on right but I did not have the enough references to argue. Now I'll collect it and meet with Imam masjid near to professor's home and then with professor.

Deeba1234, thanks for the reference, I'll read it in detail.

I am already working on court marraige or nikah option in parrallel, but my fiance is reluctant to go for this option (which is a natural behavior for girls) She is looking for some safe way. Anyway I'm trying to convince her softly. Hopefully she'll be agreed for this soon.

On the other side, I'll collect the relevant references and prepare my case to present in the court of professor. Obviously I already sent my case in the Highest Court of all the worlds.

I beleive that you all are praying for me. I'll keep you posted with updates.

Thank you all

History Mystery- Part 3
10

Faisal, stay firm and Inshallah Allah will guide the righteous. My own brother wanted to marry a non Pakistani and my mother never agreed. He stayed firm for NINE years insisting that he would never marry anyone but her and she also did the same. After that my sister said to my mom, would you rather have a son stay single all his life or let him be happily married? She finally relented and now mashallah they have two beautiful children and my bhabi really takes care of my mom like a good daughter.

Both of you should keep talking and keep firm with the parents and if they see that your minds are set, they may change their minds..if not soon, eventually.

And one more thing. Please dont do anything in a rush. Juldi key kaam mein nuksaan ho saktha hai.

Both parties need to think carefully about what the implications of a court marriage etc are not do thing slowly.

May Allah help you in your pershaani. Ameen

Sharabi Kababi
11

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

Faisal i can understand that you are very upset at the moment, but i would suggest that you do not undertake a court marriage or secret Nikah....try and convince both sets of parents, there will be a time when you both will need your families.

you need to sit back and think about your future married life....it will not be easy for you fiance as there is too much tension between your families...will she be able to cope if the going gets tough with your family and how it will affect your relationship with her.. also i already sense some discord on your part towards her father, aka Professor......

i'm sorry for being harsh but i think you two have a battle on your hands, getting married will be difficult but all these problems wil put a strain on your relationship once you are married...is it worth it????

12

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

^ Regarding the last bit, situations can change tho, can't they. I can't describe the happiness I felt when my Mum started to soften in her views towards my non-desi other half. It was like I was floating on air lol and even tho it was a long time coming it was sooo worth it, I'm so glad we didn't just take the easy way out + just give up. Me and my fiance had to wait years like Wildhalcyon's brother but it makes me think how lucky I am that I have someone who's that committed and didn't wana just walk away.

Parents nearly always come around in the end. I have seen loads of these situations and not one of them has ended in the parents never ever accepting, I know it happens but it's rare, I mean they'd have to have hearts of stone to never want to see their son/daughter again (and miss out on their future grandchildren). My Mum did a complete u-turn, she sees my fiance like a son now, even encourages me to spend more time with him! I have seen similar things happen with friends so moral of the story is 'where there's a will there's a way' :)

13

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

Even if things can be reconciled, are your parents still expecting your sisters to be married before you? To be honest, I think this condition was unfair to your fiance and her family and I can see why her side would be upset.

It seems though that her family is being very stubborn and mentally and physically abusing her is just WRONG. This situation is a big mess. You can wait a little longer and stay persistent, but if both families still are refusing to reconcile then you and her both will eventually have to decide what is more important...your family or fiance? You will have to choose ONE.

It's so disturbing to hear stories of families getting in the way of their children's happiness and refusing to let them marry the person they want. I know family is blood, but if they are treating you this way, then it means they don't really care for your happiness. How can they not? If I were you, I'd marry her anyway.

14

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

There is another twist in the situation.

When her parent knew that she kept contact with me through her cell phone, they had taken her cell phone. She was teaching in a school (she is still teaching there). Although there was restriction on staff to use cell phone in the school but whenever she got opportunity to talk with me she borrowed cell phone from her colleague and talked with me.
In the meanwhile against her will her parents imposed another decision on her, they engaged her with someone else. Although she did not accepted it, but her parents enforced it on her.
Her parents hide the contacts of the other family from her so that she could not refuse them directly as she once did in the past.
She got contact number of the boy and passed it to me just the summer vacation start. I gave this number to some of my friend who talked with that guy and informed about the situation. My friend also talked with the sister of that person. They concluded break up with her family, because the relation would not work after listening this story.
Now, because there are summer vacations and my fiance could only have opportunity to talk me in school, so I am unaware about the latest.

I'm in search of a lady who can call to her home and then talk with her and get the latest updates. I am also trying to get links in the family for it.
Problem is that I am sitting away from the city where my fiance lives with her parents.

So this is the latest.

15

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

you say they physcially torture her, are they beating her......

if its that severe, she can go to the police or a womens hostel, im not sure where you live, and i do not know whats available in pakistan, but if they are beating her, she needs to get out.

16

Hav ur tried talking n connecting with ur fiances parents and family. Instead of sending ur family to be insulted by other party u need to work on ur realationwith Professor sahab first. Tell him u r sorry for watever happened n appologize on behalf of ur family.Make whole family ur friend n wellwisher. once thats done than send ur family again.

however my first response to ur query was let go n forget. both u n fiance move on coz just as RV said i agree marrying in such scenario brings trouble for the girl later on. ur parents will take out all their frustration n the insult they faced over ur fiance. then even u'll find urself helpless unless u intend to move away from family right from the start.

17

i'm sorry to say that but both u n ur fiance r acting really childlike n immature. let me tell u one thing straight maa baap ki baat na sun ker aur un ko sata ker jo rishta qaim kia jaaiy Allah bhi us rishtay se haath aur barkat utha laita hai.

were u guys nikkahied it was something diff

18

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

I do not think tattling like that to other people outside of both of your families is wise. Their family's reputation and not to mention your fiance's as well will be in shreds and your love will be the one to blame for it. Please dont call other people and give them a reason to talk about your personal family issues and problems.

Never air your dirty laundry out in public. You may think right now you're doing the right thing but if you end up marrying this girl...her family is your family. Be careful about the moves you make.

Other then that, the only suggestion I have is for you is to get a religious figure involved. Maybe your masjid's Imam can help out. Right now, the only thing you're doing is irritating a wound...and that can cause bigger problems. Calm down, talk to someone outside your immediate social and familial circle and see what they suggest.

19

^ I agree with Psquared about not getting others involved.

Faisal,

It is not wise of you to "find a lady" who can get updates from your "fiance." There is not guarantee that this "lady" will tell other people about your fiance's personal life. It only takes the wagging tongues of only a couple of people and then pretty soon the whole community will be gossiping. While such a scenario will affect both of you, it is more harmful for your fiance because a girl's izzat/reputation is more fragile in Pakistani society. And if her parents find out that you arranged for a "lady" to learn "updates" in their family, then you could lose more respect in her parents' eyes. And there is even a possibility that this "lady" might blackmail you for her own gains.

If you and your fiance are unable to communicate via cell phone, then how about internet? Do you both have access to a computer? Then why don't you either chat with each other via messenger or send email.

A long time ago I advised you that BOTH of your families need to sit and talk IN THE PRESENCE of you and your fiance. In other words, you and your fiance should attend this discussion to make sure that no cheating or foul play takes place.

You also need to consider where you will be living after marriage? Will you be living with your parents or separately? The reason I ask is because when the in-laws have a grudge toward a girl's family............they usually take out their frustrations on the "bahu." So, in the event that you both do get married, your fiance might encounter problems with your parents and you'll have to be the supportive yet fair-minded mediator in this case.

My advice is similar to as Mabrook suggested above. First you need to talk to your parents and explain to them that you want to marry this girl, that you love her, that she has done nothing wrong here, and that this whole argument is based on petty ego issues. You might even ask some elders in your family (grandparents, uncles, etc) to also try and convince your parents. BUT the first step is for you to WIN your parents' support.

Secondly, you need to talk to the girl's father and apologize for any mistakes made by you and your family. And then you need to arrange a face-to-face meeting between both families so they can sort issues out. And during this meeting you and your fiance need to be present to make sure nobody plays dirty.

If these above two steps fail...............or if you have already tried the above steps and if they've failed....................then talk to your local imam about what he suggests regarding the situation. You can ask the imam to talk to your parents and counsel them about what action they should take. And you can even request the imam to be present when BOTH families talk about their issues. The imam can act as a mediator between both families.

20

Re: We both firm to marry but not both families

and if everything RV suggested fails n nothing works plz don't go to court n stake urs and her parent's repu n take their bad-dua.