Way to go! - Govt installs wind turbines

[danday_wala]

@burqaposhx

2020 or 2050?

Our production from Nuclear sources doesn’t exceed 600 MW (from two 300 MW Chinese plants). So far only Chinese are willing to sell us the plants because we are dead set on avoiding NPT.

And Chinese have a maximum capacity of 500 MW per plant. So if your info is correct, China has to supply at least 15 more nuclear plants in the next 10 years. This is more of a wishful thinking.

Its OK to update one’s knowledge now and then.

Nuclear Power in Pakistan

"…]
In 2005 an Energy Security Plan was adopted by the government, calling for a huge increase in generating capacity to more than 160,000 MWe by 2030. It includes plans for lifting nuclear capacity to 8800 MWe, 900 MWe of this by 2015 and a further 1500 MWe by 2020. Plans included four further Chinese reactors of 300 MWe each and seven of 1000 MWe, all PWR. There were tentative plans for China to build two 1000 MWe PWR units at Karachi as KANUPP 2 & 3, but China then in 2007 deferred development of its CNP-1000 type which is the only one able to be exported. Pakistan is now exploring the possibility of smaller units with higher local content. …]"

@burqaposhx

2020 or 2050?
That’s true. But do you even know what percentage of German power comes from wind compared to coal and nuclear?

Dated 31.12.2007

7,2% of total energy in Germany is produced through wind …which is equal to 22,247MW.
(Increasing rapidly).

BWE: Statistiken

Hope that helps.

[Monk]

"ISLAMABAD: The government has installed the country’s first ever 1.2 megawatts (MW) wind turbines for commercial power generation in Jhimpir district Thatta (Sindh)."

.

About time ehh?

[danday_wala]

Re: Way to go! - Govt installs wind turbines

^^ Yup.

As they say in Farsi: "Daer Aa'ed Dar'ust Aa'ed".

[burqaposhx]

@danday_wala

Its OK to update one's knowledge now and then. ........In 2005 an Energy Security Plan was adopted by the government,

..........7.2% of total energy in Germany is produced through wind ..Hope that helps.

I hope a bit of googling helped you as well.

Read my post above where it was clearly stated

** Solar or Wind can only provide 2-10% needs. The bulk has to come from coal and nuclear with minor additions from hydel.**

Germany's 7% wind contribution is within the limit of 2-10%. Hope this helps.

And googling a Pak government plan is not going to help yara. FYI China cannot make 1000 MW plants. That is why Chinese are buying them from France and USA.

Just google it and you may learn a bit more this time.

[danday_wala]

@burqaposhx

I hope a bit of googling helped you as well.

Google brings me to authentic sources of useful information and thus helps increasing my knowlege.

I strongly recommend you to use it!

@burqaposhx

Read my post above where it was clearly stated

Solar or Wind can only provide 2-10% needs. The bulk has to come from coal and nuclear with minor additions from hydel.

Germany's 7% wind contribution is within the limit of 2-10%. Hope this helps.

If you would have quoted the sentence from my earlier post till the end, it would read like:

"7,2% of total energy in Germany is produced through wind ...which is equal to 22,247MW."

In post #15 you write Pak's energy need is 20,000MW.

So now the figure 22,247MW may well be within your 2-10% cap (BTW it becomes more than 30,000MW if you add solar as well) at the moment, but you should consider two important points:

1) 7.2% of Germany's energy requirement is more than the need (20,000MW) you mentioned in your post.

2) They are planing to more than double it within the next 7-10 years. Which means jumping to at least 15%.

So these countries consider it a VERY SERIOUS ENERGY SORUCE not just expensive toys, which brings me to your strange argument in post #18:

"The more experimental the tech, the costlier it would be. That's why going with wind and solar is like buying expensive toys. They may give you a lot of pleasure, but in the end they are just toys."

and makes me wonder if you want to argue just for the sake of argument?

We both agree, albeit a small one, but Govt has taken a right step in the right direction. The only difference between our approach is that...

I am looking at it in from a positive angle whereas your focus is on the negative one.

Peace.

[burqaposhx]

..

..............1) 7.2% of Germany's energy requirement is more than the need (20,000MW) you mentioned in your post.

............We both agree, albeit a small one, but Govt has taken a right step in the right direction. The only difference between our approach is that...

I am looking at it in from a positive angle whereas your focus is on the negative one.

Peace.

Peace to you too.

This is strange logic. That 7% of Germany's "installed capacity" is more than the Pakistan's total + projected need.

Oh bro! There is a reason why it is 7% of Germany's need. Why? because wind power is good to have as a "small portion" of your total need. Wind and solar are not there on 24 hours 7 day basis. They come and go and you have to deal with huge energy storage banks. There are other technical challenges that keep the solar and wind energy from becoming the source of "base power". Anyways you may not know all this technical shop talk so I'd spare you the pain.

Even if for Pakistan, wind provides 10% of Pakistan's need. That turns out to be 2,000 MW tops and not 20,000 as you say. To reach 10% or 2,000 MW, Pakistan has a long way to go and even 2,000 MW will not solve energy issues.

Proposing wind power to address Pakistan's energy needs is like telling a 7 foot tall person to live on 10 calorie per day diet. A person with that kind of physique needs 3000 calories, and once those are not available, the poor chap becomes bed ridden. Hope you get the point.

The bulk of energy for industrialized countries comes from coal and nuclear. And that's where we have to focus if we have any chance of getting rid of power shortages. China and India are two good examples. Both have begged, pleaded, and made deals with the West to supply them HUGE nuclear power plants. The reason is simple, China and India cannot build those at their own. And if they cannot build 1000+ MW for themselves, how could they sell them to someone else?

Pseudo-Environmentalists and socialist planners are some of the biggest threats to Pakistan's development (corruption comes after these two). These pseudos learn few words from the West without looking at the big picture and start proposing toy solutions.

peace

p.s. being realistic and pragmatic is different and being negative is different.

[Spock]

Re: Way to go! - Govt installs wind turbines

Thank you for letting me know Solar Energy is expensive Burqa, I'll be sure to note that down.

[burqaposhx]

Thank you for letting me know Solar Energy is expensive Burqa, I'll be sure to note that down.

This comment obviously is based on very little research on energy production. Solar energy "may be, sort of free" AFTER the solar plants have been installed. Off course there is huge cost involved in developing and installing such plants. So here is a very simple maths for you:

Total cost of energy production = capital cost + operational cost.

As I said this equation has been kept very simple for you, but in real life it does include whole bunch of other costs. But I won't tax anyone with too much detail.

And Spock bro, you are looking at just one of the factors on the right side of the equation. Capital costs for solar plants can be as high as $1 billion for puny little 250 MW plants, and still you cannot depend on them when you need them most i.e. during the night.

Not only costs but capacity is another important factor.

We have to see the "installed" capacity of such plants vs. what is the actual production averaged over 24 hours period, and then averaged across seasons on yearly basis.

Thus for Pakistan to have even 10% of our energy i.e. 2,000 MW from solar means that we need to have at least 40 solar plants with "base" and not "peak" capacity of 50 MW. The reason to set 50MW tops is that most of the recent plants have been in this range. Some with a bit more but still in the same general range. You can bunch a whole lot of them together to make bigger plants.

Third factor is the time it takes to develop and install large capacity solar plants.

So tell me how long does it take and how much does it cost even for the Western countries to install 2,000 MW worth of "base power" solar plants.

No jokes please!

p.s. Coal or nuclear on the other hand can produce 1,000 MW per plant reliably for a long time. Just remember the Total cost and the "base capacity" for comparison.

[Amour]

The Indian wind energy sector has an installed capacity of 8300 MW (as on March08). pakistan has 1.2MW ........ hmmm different priorities i guess.

source please???

[Spock]

This comment obviously is based on very little research on energy production. Solar energy "may be, sort of free" AFTER the solar plants have been installed. Off course there is huge cost involved in developing and installing such plants. So here is a very simple maths for you:

Total cost of energy production = capital cost + operational cost.

As I said this equation has been kept very simple for you, but in real life it does include whole bunch of other costs. But I won't tax anyone with too much detail.

And Spock bro, you are looking at just one of the factors on the right side of the equation. Capital costs for solar plants can be as high as $1 billion for puny little 250 MW plants, and still you cannot depend on them when you need them most i.e. during the night.

Not only costs but capacity is another important factor.

We have to see the "installed" capacity of such plants vs. what is the actual production averaged over 24 hours period, and then averaged across seasons on yearly basis.

Thus for Pakistan to have even 10% of our energy i.e. 2,000 MW from solar means that we need to have at least 40 solar plants with "base" and not "peak" capacity of 50 MW. The reason to set 50MW tops is that most of the recent plants have been in this range. Some with a bit more but still in the same general range. You can bunch a whole lot of them together to make bigger plants.

Third factor is the time it takes to develop and install large capacity solar plants.

So tell me how long does it take and how much does it cost even for the Western countries to install 2,000 MW worth of "base power" solar plants.

No jokes please!

p.s. Coal or nuclear on the other hand can produce 1,000 MW per plant reliably for a long time. Just remember the Total cost and the "base capacity" for comparison.

Are you alright? Whats with the long lectures? I think being an EE who has solar panels at home I think I know more than a layman how the economics of this technology models up. Please spare me the long posts next time as I am already aware of how much it costs.

[danday_wala]

Are you alright? Whats with the long lectures? I think being an EE who has solar panels at home I think I know more than a layman how the economics of this technology models up. Please spare me the long posts next time as I am already aware of how much it costs.

Spock sahib welcome to the club, :D

I have at least 5 neighbors with those panels on their roofs and mind you not much sun is shining in this part of the world!

Those guys are completely covering their energy needs (both electricity and hot water) with those panels + selling back the extra power to the Govt by adding it to national grid.

[Prince_of_Lahore]

Re: Way to go! - Govt installs wind turbines

Top countries in Installed windpower capacity (in MW)

1 Germany 22,247
2 United States 16,818
3 Spain 15,145
4 India 8,000
5 China 6,050

Souce: Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power

[Prince_of_Lahore]

great news.

how many MW does it take to light up Karachi for a day?

Don't know about Karachi but total peak summer demand for Pakistan in 2008 is projected at 16,484 MW.
Source:Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Pakistan

[Spock]

Spock sahib welcome to the club, :D

I have at least 5 neighbors with those panels on their roofs and mind you not much sun is shining in this part of the world!

Those guys are completely covering their energy needs (both electricity and hot water) with those panels + selling back the extra power to the Govt by adding it to national grid.

Awesome yar! Unfortunately, I'm the only one in my neighborhood, as its more of a hobby! HAve you seen the solar lit park in Rawalpindi on peshawar road? It was built by the head of the solar engineering dept at EME was a professor of mine. Sometimes these little ideas work wonders! I met this one guy who installed this impounding reservoir system on top of his house, which works mechanically and whatever water is used to flush the toilet comes from rain water.

[danday_wala]

Awesome yar! Unfortunately, I'm the only one in my neighborhood, as its more of a hobby! HAve you seen the solar lit park in Rawalpindi on peshawar road? It was built by the head of the solar engineering dept at EME was a professor of mine. Sometimes these little ideas work wonders! I met this one guy who installed this impounding reservoir system on top of his house, which works mechanically and whatever water is used to flush the toilet comes from rain water.

Oh wow, haven't visited that park yet, but would love to!

As for rain water, in many countries of the world it is considered a crime to waste it. And per law citizens are required to store this in a standardized way. It is good to know that some Paks have started to realize its value as well.

One question, do you know some private companies in Pak who are selling/installing solar systems?

[indik]

@burqaposhx

There is no free lunch. The more experimental the tech, the costlier it would be. That's why going with wind and solar is like buying expensive toys. They may give you a lot of pleasure, but in the end they are just toys.

The real backbone of any electrical system is build upon large projects that are mostly coal, and nuclear with minor contribution from hydel.

Any peace-loving country with cash can buy 1000 MW nuclear plant for $3 billion. However Pakistanis do not want to go that root so they have to rely on wind (and may be a lot more hotwind)

this is enviroment freindly but very costly.,cost of storage batteries are too much i think it costs thrice as compared to thermal .

[Dr.LuLworth]

Re: Way to go! - Govt installs wind turbines

Thats cool. Any little bit helps.

[mo293]

We should develop Coal mines too.

China makes first 2,210-kw coal mining machine

The first China-made 2,210 kilowatt coal mining machine passed check and appraisal on Saturday in the northwestern Shaanxi Province, reducing the reliance on exports.

Trial operation showed the remote control machine, produced by Xi'an Coal Mining Machine Co. Ltd, can mine eight million tons of coal annually, according to the Shaanxi Provincial Science and Technology Department.

The price for each was 16 million yuan (2.3 million U.S. dollars), more than 40 percent lower than exported ones.

China's coal production doubled in the recent decade and reached 2.5 billion tons last year. But it can only produce coal mining machine with power capacity below 1,800 kw. Machines above 2,000-kw were exported from the U.S. and Germany.

(Xinhua News Agency December 14, 2008)

[danday_wala]

Re: Way to go! - Govt installs wind turbines

^^ of course we should.

All sources of energy should be utilized.

[Xenophanez]

@firenze

Brother, Pakistan has 3050 Million tones proved reserves of coal... it will be enough for next 200 years, if one forget about environment impact

Too much politics/kickbacks involved. KSE can RENT thermal powered generators from forgein companies (paying 1/4th of it's total cost as annual rent), but Government won't allow PRIVATE PAKISTANI companies to set up their plants to start production COMMERCIALLY.