Allright, we have a discusison of our own.
Please provide the isnaad ofthe Hadith - I will not search for white elephants - its your assertion that the Hadith is valid - so provide the isnaad.
Can you be absolutely sure about those ahadith in sahah sittah, with all the asnaad and proper references, are all true, without any faults??
WE judge HAdith, with Quran... not with people.. Even Sahih Bukhari can be questioned if it conflicts with Quran..
I have told you my opinion about Najm us Saqib.. if you can't be bothered to go and search for yourself.. then lets move on to the next issue.. if you still want to be stuck on Asnaad, then prove it to me that Asnaad are an absolute criteria for the correctness of Hadith.
The burden of proof is on you destino.
Scholars judge hadeeth with matn and isnaad. matn is the text and it must show integrity, and isnaad is the chain of narrators and the chain must be strong.
You can not simply state a hadith is in a book and expect everyone to close their eyes and believe.
Please read Mr. Destino message complete. He wrote that we judge a Hadith with Quran. Is there any better way to judge an Hadith?
First a hadith must be checked for its integrity and if it ACTUALLY IS from the Prophet.
Any person can make up hadith and twist them to make them comform to the Quran while at the same time introducing extra beliefs, therefore the chain of narrators is a must.
Infact the hadith which you claim to judge by the Quran, such as the ahadith by Al-bukharee had to go through this same screening process by these collectors, hence you're implying a wrong logic, i.e. i will use the hadith quoted by al-bukharee but i will not use the chain of narrators that he produces, which in turn refer to the authenticity of this information.
Ok! Mr. Alpha!
If there is a prophetic Hadith (containing a prophecy) with weak list of narrators but is fulfilled in its totality and is also not against Holy Quran.
Are you still going to reject this Hadith even after the prophecy in it being fully fulfilled?
The best way to konw if Hadith is wrong or ture is Reffer that Hadith with the context of Holy Quran. If Holy Quran and Hadith both agree then there shouldnt be any doubt on that. I dont care what mullah or any other Aaalim say. If you dont see any contradiction between Quran and hadith then its a true hadith.
Do you Guyz Agree on this or not.
ammarr any one can write a biogrophy of anyone dead hundreds of years ago and then wave it in your face to declare what that person supposedly said as true..
it's circular logic.. the same people who verify hadith write biographies and then attest hadiths to be true or false..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
ammarr any one can write a biogrophy of anyone dead hundreds of years ago and then wave it in your face to declare what that person supposedly said as true..
it's circular logic.. the same people who verify hadith write biographies and then attest hadiths to be true or false..
[/QUOTE]
PA, this is because you seem to assume that islam in its current form is corrupt and must be re-examined.
The truth is that islamic scholarship has carried through person to person and the people who were known for their utmost sincerity and concern for islam are the ones who have passed the knowledge on. We are infact a 'jamaa'ah', i.e. if ONE person would have written a false biography, hundreds others would have refuted and rendered it useless.
You seem to miss a very important point in your study of hadith. hadith are NOT ALL TRUTHFUL. hadith are classified. 'mutawattir- reported by so many people that it is not possible for them to call gather unto a lie' and 'ahad- i.e. lesser status than a mutawattir hadith' These hadith (ahad) have a certain degree of doubt, however the degree of doubt is so little that it does not allow us to invalidate it. For example 10 people say you're truthful, and 1 says you're not. I would go with what the 10 people said even though i would have a little doubt, but certainly not enough to allow me to disregard your views. similarly in the case of a biography. If one person wrote a biography and ten others did too, in favor or aginst a certain narrator we know that this narrator existed. I am not aware of the details of how hadith are actually studied, but this is from what i know.
ammarr, let's let Alpha1 direct this thread to the point he wishes to discuss.. but yes I do understand what you said and yes I'd personally like to see a more rigorous critiria for accepting something as prophetic narrations.. 'sahih' just doesn't cut it when you are trying to be objective and dare I say, scientific.
The global economy is going down the tube, except for China and other Southeast Asian nations who are experiencing a surge in demand for their exports (due to weak Dollar, to which their currencies are tied, so the export boom for their products), in NYC, smoking has been banned in Bars (who in his/her right mind goes to Bar for not smoking?) they are talking about raising tax on alcohol (naouzobilla). People are losing their jobs left and right, and all you can talk about is who is Imam Mehdi?
All the religious stupidity has gotten us to where we stand today. Keep talking about Prophets and Mehids and whatnot, and see where it gets you in a few years.
Aren't we living in a nice time that we have no prophets. I am glad that they are all dead. Imagine, if on top of worrying about other things, you have to worry about if you are going to burn in hell first? Those who follow him or those who don’t?
Yup NY 'Ahmadi' keep focussed on what's important man.
THIS ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION VERY WELL.
Mirza Ghulam was no more than an unfortunate misguided soul.
Mirza Claims himself Superior to Jesus(pbuh)
"To this nation, God sent His promised Messiah (Mirza), who is better than the first Messiah (Jesus) in all regards. I swear by God in whose hands my soul rests that if the Messiah, son of Mary, were my contemporary, he could not have done the works that I can do. Nor would he be able to match the signs (miracles) which I am bringing."
(Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 152; Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, P. 148)
"To this community, God sent the promised Messiah (Mirza) who is better in all glory that the first Messiah (Jesus) and calls this new Messiah Ghulam Ahmad."
(Dafi-ul-Bala, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 18, P. 233; Dafi-ul-Bala P. 27)
"After all, when God and His Apostle (Muhammad(SAW)) and all the Prophets have declared the supremacy of the second Messiah (Mirza) of this period due to his great achievements; then, it is a satanic act to question me 'Why do you proclaim yourself superior to the first Messiah, the son of Mary?'."
(Haqiqat-ul-Wahi, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 22, P. 159)
"Give up all mention of the son of Mary, because Ghulam Ahmad is superior to him."
(Dafi-ul-Bala, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 18, P. 240; Dafi-ul-Bala, P. 30)
Mirza Ghulam Qadiani abused Jesus(pbuh) and, in doing so, rejected verses of Quran speaking of Jesus(pbuh) and his family. He was no more than an opportunist and a fabricator. Our holy Prophet(SAW) has warned us about the advent of impostors who will claim to be a prophet:
**The Historic Sermon of Prophet Muhammad(SAW) **
People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you.
Source
Look, its very plain and simple. We have a situation where a person has claimed to be the Mahdi, an event as important to this world as anything I can imagine - something of tantamount importance. Therefore, we need to be able to verify that this person is indeed the Mahdi.
I asked you for evidence that Mirza is the Mahdi plain and simple. You then provided a reference which you attributed to a work that I have unheard of written by Bukhari. The evidence was a Hadith narrated by Aisha (ra). That is fine, but because this hadith goes against the grain of Islam, completely against that which has come before, we need to be certain that this Hadith is correct. I am not talking about all those Hadith in the Sitah collections, I am only talking about this one Hadith, please dont cloud the issue here.
Once you provide the full text of the Hadith along with the isnaad, I will then get it verified for its authenticity. Remember, a hadith does not have to be included in the Sitah in order for it to be authentic.
Once the isnaad is confirmed and the hadith is sound, we will then begin to look for an "Ahmad" in "HIND".
Until you have done this, there is no evidence, because all you have done is taken the hadith off from a website, again a cut a paste job which is not the way to learn and to spread knowledge.
As for PA, you wanted us to stay clear from your discussion, I would simply ask that you put a stop to your broken record for now, as this discussion is simply about whether Mirza is the Mahdi from the hadith quoted from a website by Destino.
And NYA, keep your dunya-haqeeq-amreeq sentiments to yourself. Either contribute to this in a constructive way, or else carry on khalva kha ja.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by fatehahmad: *
Ok! Mr. Alpha!
If there is a prophetic Hadith (containing a prophecy) with weak list of narrators but is fulfilled in its totality and is also not against Holy Quran.
Are you still going to reject this Hadith even after the prophecy in it being fully fulfilled?
[/QUOTE]
Mr Fateh Ahmad
Again please do not divert from the main issue here. This Hadith of Aisha quoted by Mr Destino contains a very fundemental element of our creed if it is authentic, since it gives us the address of the Mahdi (pre-partion British Raj India). We need to therefore verify its authenticity in order to be sure.
Accepting Hadith because they are accurately predicting the future is not the science of Hadith, that my freind is falling into the realm of nostro- damus. I will only accept the Hadith is it has satisfied the criterion of the Muhaditheen. Once it is shown to be good, we will then move on to see whereabout in India the Mahdi is, and so forth.
mirza wasn't imam mehdi (a.s) they will come near the end of the life
Did Mirza claim to be The Mahdi?
No, Al-Mahdi is not yet born in this world according to our belief but to Shias, he is The Son of their 11th Imam who is in the occultation.
Allah knows the best.
Yep...Mirza sahib was the Mahdi...Too bad he died though...:)
^
mirza was the maddy???
i always knew that 