War between a giant tiger and a huge elephant.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=28122001-033416-9808r

South Asia war could be biggest since WWII
By Martin Sieff
UPI Senior News Analyst
Published 12/28/2001 4:25 PM

WASHINGTON, Dec. 28 (UPI) – A conventional war between India and Pakistan would be like a battle between a giant tiger and a huge elephant.

As the two gigantic nations, the second and sixth most populous in the world, ominously gear up for what could be an enormous war, the capabilities

and resilience of both of them are vastly underestimated in the outside world.

But in practice such a conflict, even if it does not go nuclear, would be one of the largest conflicts in human history. It would certainly involve the largest ground battles the world has seen since the four-year clash between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union that was the heart of World War

II.

That war, called later “Hitler’s War on Russia” by best-selling German popular historian Paul Carell, and known by Russians to this day as "The

Great Patriotic War," saw at least 35 million human beings killed, 27 million of them Russians and between 5 million to 7 million of them Germans. Those

death tolls dwarfed the losses of every other World War II combatant except China and the Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust.

It has become fashionable in recent years for U.S. leaders, Republican and Democrat alike, to describe Pakistan as a “failed state,” a description

once most famously used by President Clinton’s second national security adviser, Sandy Berger.

But a vast nation of 140 million people that has successfully developed and maintained nuclear weapons and the missile systems to deliver them,

albeit with major help from its allies, can hardly be described as a “failed state.” And as anyone with any familiarity at all with Pakistan knows, if

there is one institution in that nation that has not “failed” but still performs effectively, it is the army.

In 1999, Pakistani forces in the icy reaches of the Himalayas achieved embarrassing tactical surprise in the Kargil conflict when they occupied

key heights, taking the Indian army on the other side of the disputed Line of Control totally by surprise.

India then deployed overwhelming force, rolled the Pakistanis back and claimed the victory. But it was neither easy nor cheap. Indian casualties

are estimated to have been in the thousands.

In the months after that conflict, Indian military analysts openly warned in newspapers that Pakistani units in general appeared far more flexible and capable of rapid, surprise operations than their own far more numerous forces. It is that contrast that gives rise to the comparison and contrast between the tiger and the elephant.

The Pakistani tiger is a well-trained, well-motivated force. The best and brightest in Pakistan seek to join the army, especially as officers. Pakistani troop units move and deploy rapidly and efficiently and orders are issued and carried out with a minimum of fuss.

The Indian elephant has far larger reserves of manpower it can call upon from its vast population of more than a billion people. But Indian administration and mobilization are bureaucratically complex. India’s consensual democratic system and federal political structure also add layers of complexity and slowness to mobilizing the nation’s resources.

If India were to take the offensive and score early successes, taking advantage of Pakistan’s current overstretched force deployment, these

drawbacks could be initially neutralized. Conversely, if Pakistan were either to strike first, or be able to mount outflanking operations against vulnerable Indian formations, it could cause disproportionate disruption.

The two most recent full-scale wars the two South Asian giants fought in 1965 and 1971 were short, straightforward, and both military and civilian

casualties on thin Kashmir were relatively light for the size of the combatants and the forces engaged. But a new conflict is likely to be far

different on all counts.

In the last full-scale war, fought 30 years ago in 1971, Indian forces had the enormous advantage of fighting an overstretched Pakistani

army torn in two between defending Kashmir and its own heartland in the west, and holding down what was then known as East Pakistan, today the

independent nation of Bangladesh, in the east. Although as Muslim as Pakistan, the people of Bangladesh had been mercilessly repressed by the

Pakistan army over the previous year and fought fiercely against it, giving crucial aid to India.

In any new conflict, this guerrilla, and popular insurgent factor would be on Pakistan’s side, not India’s. The population of Indian-controlled Kashmir

is overwhelmingly Muslim and over the past 12 years they have been heavily radicalized in support of Pakistan-based and supported mujahedin insurgent

movements.

Full-scale revolts and waves of guerrilla and terror attacks could prove as costly and disruptive as Soviet partisan activity did to the reeling

German Army Group Center in the Battle of Byelorussia in June-July 1944.

Also, India has an enormous Muslim population of its own, around 100 million people. If even 1 percent, or one-tenth of 1 percent of them, were to be radicalized into active support of Pakistan, they could present an enormous disruptive fifth column threat on the home front. By contrast, there are almost no Hindus and very few other non-Muslim Indians in Pakistan.

However, if the war were to prove a long-term one, or even if Pakistan were to win striking short-term victories, it would be unlikely to wreck or

even seriously damage the vast, grassroots patriotic commitment of Indians to defend their homeland and counterattack again.

The greatest danger that could make this war a long drawn-out one is that both Indians and Pakistanis look likely to grossly underestimate each other and the level of patriotic commitment and self-sacrifice on both sides.

The peoples of Europe thought that about one another when they stumbled into World War I in 1914. That miscalculation destroyed European civilization and paved the way for the even greater horrors of Nazi and Communist totalitarianism. The peoples of South Asia, Pakistani and Indian

alike, do not want to make the same mistake.

Copyright © 2002 United Press International

abdali the article did not say how long pakistan can afford to fight.
iran-iraq fought 10years because both have oil money and spent 500 billion dollors each.
casulalties is about 1 million.

We dont know war !!!

Only time tells how long a war can be fought and how long Pakistan holds out..

As long as Pakistan continues its crackdown on kashmiri militants in pakistan, and breaks its ties with kashmiri militant groups in kashmir, there will be no war.

And Pakistan is doing all this under Indian threat and build up, as much as they did against Talibans under American threat.

When all western eyes r on Pak nukes, Indians know that this time, nukes can not be used against India, and this deterrance has withered out.

Our military leaderes have shown to the world that they only understand the language of violence and threats.

Freemind, sooner or later we have to hope that it sinks into your skull that Musharraf has been acting against our own fundamentalists long before Sep 11 as it happens. He's done a damn sight more than your govt with it's crackpot ministers like Lal Advani has against Bajrang Dal, VHP etc.

Don't kid yourself, comparing yourself with USA is not realistic. Your dumbass soldiers can't lay mines without losing 20 men a day, what happens if things really kick off?

Looks like this pathetic sabre-rattling might backfire on India with a Kashmir settlement looming.

[quote]
Originally posted by Judge^MentuLL:
*Looks like this pathetic sabre-rattling might backfire on India with a Kashmir settlement looming. *
[/quote]

US is not in south asia to solve indo-pak problems. they are there to loot the oil wealth of centra asia and for secure oil routes. anything that will strenghten pak goes against long term US interests.

freemind, u r right! general only respons to threats.

I don't see any Paki coming forward to accept that Gen. is kneeling under pressure from threats by India and leading world powers. I see all Pakis are claiming he was claming down on extremists/terrorists long before 9/11. Grateful if someone could point out what effective measures he took before that day (not the cosmetic ones). Mushy is going in the direction of agreeing to nearly all the demands that India put forward albiet showing a diff. picture for domestic consumption.

You don't see what dhir?
We all have lives.
Second you can't see anything with those rose tinted glasses of yours.

The CE has been doing this way before 9 11 or was it 7 11 anyway it was some day that a couple of people died.

Simple fact is that he was after the Fundo Shia and Sunni groups.
Now he has arrested a couple in PAKISTAN!!!!!!
They are not in india.
They aren't going to be given to india.
And lastly i hope we get rid of as many fundos as possible.

Freemind when are you actually going to say something new???
yawn this is getting old fast.


Ours is not to reason why;
Ours is but to do and die

Always a pleasure. Here’s an example.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Click here:-

President bans Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, Sipah-e-Mohammad.

CM, I will tell you what I don't see. I don't see any Paki accepting that they are made to do what they are doing and is not a volunteer act. The last I heard about kneeling down under pressure is that Mushy has allowed US soldiers to enter Pak borders in pursuit of Al Qaida soldiers. I just heard a few hours back on CNN. First it was give us proof, then proofs are not good enough, then we agree with the proofs against Osama, then no use of Pak bases, then no american soldiers to be allowed in Pakland, then americans will be allowed to use the facilities of transiting into Afghanistan, then, last was O.K. they can come into our country and seek Al Qaida fighters (never mind if they are Pakis, as good number of them were also captured in Afghan soil). Of course, as far as India is concerned the speed of acceding to demands will be much less. First they are nothing but freedom fighters, then they are all home grown terrorism, then after international community pointed out that 70% of terror activities carried out in the last year is attributed to these two organisations, he banned them but on some other pretext. Then he won't arrest them, after that they will be arrested and then follows around 125 more terrorists (of course he won't call them so). The last was he is calling a spade a spade and was not saying they are freedom fighters (in the presence of Blair may be). More to come, wait and watch.

So, Isee the oragnisations he banned were terrorising Pakistan internally and not some of those who were active outside Pakistan. it is more of less a law and order matter and a pure internal matter for Pakistan. Whereas when India bans SIMI in India, you make hue and cry. Anyway they are domestic matters of a country. I am talking about LeT and JeM and the likes who were openly exporting terror. They were all along pampered by Pak authorities. But not any longer. Though they want to but they are under pressure. Come on, no harm in agreeing to the truth. Truth shall prevail. Satyamev Jayate.

You asked for proof President Musharraf was clamping down on extremist organistaions even before 9/11 and all this present Indian whining and you got it. The likes of LeT and JeM are moving their operations to occupied Kashmir, and we have no problem with that. But thanks to all that failed Indian whining and bomabasity of recent weeks we now have now have a greater international focus on the Kashmir dispute. From Kargil to Kathmandu via Agra (

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

) every step India has taken has furthered the internationalistion of the Kashmir dispute. No shame in admitting that you know?

[This message has been edited by Malik73 (edited January 08, 2002).]

Dhir why don't you believe your own govt when they say the moves are cosmetic?

A. Nobody here agreed with the giving of the airport to the US.

B. Nobody here said OBL is guilty.

C. Nobody here said the americans were allowed into Pakistan to get al-qaeda members.

D. When did the CE say they were home grown terrorists?

E. 70% - show the link for that.


Ours is not to reason why;
Ours is but to do and die

mallik there will be no more beating around the bush. how pakistan want to solve the
kashmir problem throught talks or through proxies?
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/08/international/asia/08MUSH.html

Rvikz you want us to believe Al Yehoodi??
Rvikz you know we won't.
So why even try?


Ours is not to reason why;
Ours is but to do and die

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Malik73:
The likes of LeT and JeM are moving their operations to occupied Kashmir, and we have no problem with that.

You can mark my words :- You will soon face problem with that also. Mushy is trying to deceive the world community that they are no longer in Pak but in PoK. I don’t see any difference between the two as for both they need support of Pak government without which they cannot survive a day. Big Brother Blair just went back telling so, maybe not publicly but you will feel the heat in the days to come.

But thanks to all that failed Indian whining and bomabasity of recent weeks we now have now have a greater international focus on the Kashmir dispute.

The kind of focus you are getting is going to harm the so-called Kashmir cause as Mushy said.

**Never mind the international focus,
From Kargil to Kathmandu via Agra (

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

) every step India has taken has furthered the internationalistion of the Kashmir dispute. No shame in admitting that you know?**

Admit this that all the above internationalise the Paki physical involvement in Kashmir rather than just the moral one and you are already backstepping slowly.

Originally posted by CM:
Dhir why don't you believe your own govt when they say the moves are cosmetic?

I do and the world does except Pakis.

A. Nobody here agreed with the giving of the airport to the US.

Nobody supported this idea and in fact I heard a lot of statements on T.V. showing people chanting Pakistan will be deathbed for American soldiers if they put their foot on this soil, and look what's happening. Your President is now allowing US soldiers to please come to Pakistan and search for the unwanted (by US) elements in Pakistan. The latest is that they have now agreed that Osama may be in Pak (come and search him, we lack guts).

B. Nobody here said OBL is guilty.

But Pakistan is the most active supporter in finding him and killing thousands in that search.

C. Nobody here said the americans were allowed into Pakistan to get al-qaeda members.

I am not saying HERE, I am saying general Pak sentiment was against that and now they have been allowed.

D. When did the CE say they were home grown terrorists?

I was talking about the terrorists in Kashmir.

E. 70% - show the link for that.

Sure(I will search one for you later), but last I saw a recent article by Mark Tully saying the same.

Dhir,

with Pakistan's contribution to the war on terrorism being recognised by a grateful world, India's spineless posturing is meaningless. The world loves Musharraf, and with him continuing to deliver, India's brutal repression of Kashmir under a fundamentalist Hindu nationalist government will look even worse. It's time to rein in your Bajrang fanatics, it's all over.

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
abdali the article did not say how long pakistan can afford to fight.
iran-iraq fought 10years because both have oil money and spent 500 billion dollors each.
casulalties is about 1 million.

[/quote]

Don't worry about the time. It will be over in minutes. But good old 'Georgie' will not be there to make millions or billions on coffins. What an opportunity lost! ha George?

Tank comparision…
http://defence-data.com/current/page13240.htm

India’s tank force not as potent as numbers indicate

11 January 2002

A comparative analysis of India and Pakistan tank forces finds that India’s superiority in numbers is questionable. In the wake of the military standoff between the two nations, Forecast International’s Weapons Group finds it is more than raw numbers that count.

India’s 4,880 tanks outnumber Pakistan’s 2,808 by nearly 2-to-1, yet India’s inventory includes several obsolescent models, most importantly the Vijayanta (the Vickers Mark 1) and the T-55.

“Nearly all of these tanks are in bad disrepair and in need of major overhaul,” said Forecast International’s Weapon Systems Analyst Greg Fetter. “Most of India’s T-55s have never been overhauled or modified and more than 90 percent of India’s T-54/T-55 inventory is considered non-operational.”

The condition of the T-72, the mainstay of India’s armoured force, is not much better, according to Fetter. “These tanks need a major overhaul and at least 70 percent of the inventory is not considered fully battleworthy,” he said.

Fetter said India’s Avadi tank production and retrofit facility has been riddled with bureaucratic inefficiency, which has greatly hindered its effectiveness. Contributing to the sad state of affairs has been the disastrous programme to develop an indigenous tank, the Arjun.

“This debacle cost India over $1.23 billion and explains why the necessary maintenance, overhauls and upgrades for the T-72 and other Indian tanks have not been funded,” Fetter said.

The single bright spot in India’s tank programme is the acquisition of the Russian T-90, but the first of these has only just arrived in knock-down state. Even after assembly, crews for the new tanks will need extensive training.

“The new T-90 tank cannot be considered a viable component in India’s armoured force structure until mid-year and even then in small numbers,” Fetter said.

Pakistan’s tank inventory, while significantly smaller than India’s, has been much better maintained and upgraded over the years. The Taxila facility, built with Chinese aid, can undertake any level of modernisation and retrofit of existing tanks as well as the assembly and manufacture of new production tanks and components.

“In terms of numbers, Pakistan’s Type 59 (licensed T-54) represents the country’s largest single tank type,” Fetter said. “The nation has implemented and maintained a major and comprehensive modernisation and retrofit effort for these tanks.”

This effort, plus similar ones for Type 69-IIMP, has made these tanks fully battleworthy. The Type 85-IIAP, one of two tanks being manufactured, is a modern design that is well maintained and ready for combat.

Both Pakistan and India have worked at developing an indigenous tank but Pakistan has been more successful with its programme. However, as the first order for fifteen tanks has yet to be fully delivered, this new tank cannot figure in any comparative analysis, at least for some time.

The star of Pakistan’s tank inventory is the T-80UD and the reason why India ordered the T-90 from the Russia. The Pakistani T-80UD tanks are fully operational and can deal with any Indian tank including the new T-90.

Forecast International/DMS Inc is a provider of Market Intelligence and Analyses in the areas of aerospace, defence, power systems and military electronics.

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