Wanted: male college students...

i’m putting a great deal of thought into this thread, so i would appreciate some mature responses; whether or not you agree or disagree screw that, but mature responses would be highly appreciated.

This must be very well-known but unfortunately i wasn’t aware of it until very recently. In the early 1970s, there was a social experiment carried out at Stanford. They wanted to scientifically study how human beings would exhibit patterns of behavioural changes under - i’ll call it difficult - circumstances where some students were given more power over others, and the second group was placed in an ‘inferior’ position in terms of power structures. This is the ad they placed; sorry the image is so small; it’s from their own website, i don’t have a better one:
[thumb=H]spic90_2187780.JPG[/thumb]

They chose about 20 college students and randomly assigned them positions of being a “guard” or a “prisoner”. Everything was done to simulate real prison conditions - the students who were “prisoners” were actually arrested at their homes, read their Miranda rights, taken in a real police car, fingerprinted, deloused, stripped, given prison uniforms, and then taken to their “cells”. (The basement of the psych department at Stanford was turned into a makeshift prison for the purposes of the experiment). The same things were done with the students who were randomly chosen to be “guards” - they were given guard uniforms and told the rules and regulations of how to supervise ‘their’ “prisoners”.

The entire social experiment is explained in detail here: http://www.prisonexp.org It has become a classic psychological study case for the fields of social behaviour and psychology.

The supervisors of the experiment intended for it to take two weeks. Instead, they had to end the experiment after only six days. The students who were assigned to be “guards” had started to engage in what one person has described (during the experiment itself) as sadistic behaviour towards the “prisoners”. Some of the students who were assigned to be “prisoners” had started to exhibit symptoms of depression and rage. You have to click through the screenshow on the URL above and it explains, almost day by day, of what was happening inside the mock prison set-up.

From a psychological point of view, the positions and boundaries between the 20 “healthy male college students” versus “prisoners and guards” were becoming very very blurry. Each of the 20 started to internalize the role that they KNEW had been a fake one from the very beginning; yet they internalized it to such a degree that the guards started using excessive physical force on the prisoners… and the prisoners could have left the social experiment at any time but they chose not to because, to them, they had started to actually believe that they were in a genuine prison. Remember, these were 20 emotionally and physically healthy adult males - they had been strictly selected to ensure their positive health indicators prior to entering the experiment.

Anyways… what the experiment shows is that even normal human beings - in that case, it was 20 healthy, by all accounts completely normal young males - can resort to extremely violent and bordering-on-evil acts of behaviour when they are placed in circumstances where they are given undue levels of power. You HAVE to read through the website above in order to see their transformation. It is almost frightening in a way to realize that every human being has the potential for so much ‘evil’.

What do you guys think about this? If you have read through the link above, i would really like to know what you guys feel about this experiment. i found it fascinating… imagine if you were in that situation… i wonder how all of us would react… even those guppies amongst us whom we consider to be the pretty ‘passive’ and ‘polite’ ones… Would we remain that way if we were given that much power over someone else? Or would we allow the power to corrupt us internally and, just as the mock “guards” had illustrated in this experiment, would we assert our superiority over others and try our best to remain “in control” at all times ? What does that say, really, about the essence of humanity - from a religious and cultural-psychological point of view?

we saw the actual footage of the experiment. i thought it was incredible how ppl can submerge in their character asigned to them. “saying is believing” if u say it and keep on repeating it. at one point u will start to believe it too. its not much about taking power over someone, its more about fulfilling the schema u have. i think this applies to the cultural point of view as well. u are expected to do something, fulfil a certain role and hence u do that, within the expectations of the society.

i do pay attention in class :blush:

i dont think ppl who exhibited such a nature were actually psychologically stable....

ah, a different perspective. Excellent. Thanks, Suroor. Yes you are right - it can be about character positions - i mean, how society (in other words, all of us collectively) assign roles to each other. Then how you subconsciously fulfil that role… think about it from a female-male perspective. You go to a desi gathering, and we all KNOW/FEEL how desi females are supposed to behave. It’s inculcated within us. So even if some of us would never do this deliberately, we sub-consciously all fulfil the roles that is ‘expected’ of us… the manner in which you talk, how high/low your voice is, how you carry yourself, down to how you sit. It’s all part of us fulfilling our societal roles. The Stanford experiment, for me, blows that up into a much more larger context because at least, in the desi example i gave, we’re not really hurting anyone are we (it could be argued we are hurting ourselves, but that’s another discussion). But when we start to fulfil societal expectations of roles within an institutional context - say a prison structure - that’s when you get really complicated. A very good current example is those dreadful images coming out of Al Ghraib prison. Infact, the Stanford link i posted above does briefly discuss the treatment of Iraqi prisoners at Al Ghraib.

i’m going off-topic :~/ Anyways, thanks a mil for your response. i really appreciate it. :flower1:

Armughal, Well to ascertain that for surety, you need to read up on what sort of tests they conducted prior to choosing those males. All the data etc is provided in the link.

NADZ :flower1: hugz hugz hugz

heard a lot abt this experiment…its a hot topic at stanford, specially among psych students…was it conducted by ZIMBARDO the psych prof?

yaar, i am afraid, i have to agree with the results of this experiment…under normal circumstances, power corrups and absolute power corrupts absolutely…UNLESS you have a basic set of morals which you make sure rule your behavior…

i do think at the end though everything is under the person’s control…

luckily for us Muslims we have Islam to guide our behavior :slight_smile: alhamdulillah…if we stick to its teachings then power wont corrupt us…but we have to be alert all the time and make sure we’re doing the right thing

waise what got u thinking abt this? :flower1:

hugz

Irem, A million thanks; your hugs are definitely appreciated. :flower1: :flower1: It was Zimbardo, you’re absolutely right; i knew it started with a “Z”! Just couldn’t remember what it was and too lazy to check the website. i wanted to ask you if you’ve studied this. Does Zimbardo still teach there?

i wonder… could that be a social justification for religions - that without a religion (any religion, whether it be Islam, or Christianity, or Buddhism), we would lose our moral compass?

You know what it was, i was reading a BBC news article regarding “Would you hurt him?” or something like that, about the treatment of prisoners at Al Ghraib. (i was trying to find it right now, and i can’t, i’m sorry). The article was discussing whether or not people like you and me who think we are pretty “normal” (i suppose that’s debatable!) would perpetrate such acts of brutality if we were in that situation. It was like a psychological discussion. One of the links the BBC article gave, was to the Stanford Prison Experiment… and from there, i just had to read all of it. i found it absolutely fascinating.

Humans are such unpredictable, irrational, and ultimately (i THINK) internally-flawed creatures.

NADZ… HUGZ…yaar…ZIMBARDO is a hot prof…as in his psych 1 class is always overbooked and ppl r dying to get in and everyone cant…he teaches the intro to psych class…i think only one qtr per yr…

he is soooo cool, i havent taken the class but i heard in the first lecture he hypnotises his whole class…! literaly…one of my friends dint get hypnotises and Zimbardo called him and asked him how come u dint…
can u believe it yaar, the class is sooooo coollllllll!!!

yaar i cant say but personally i think i would be completely LOST, NOTHING without religion

ALHAMDULILLAH that ALLAH swt gave us ISLAM :flower1:

:frowning: Irem, Allah gave us Islam but doesn’t that kind of scare you… i mean in terms of - all the obligations we have that we are not fulfilling vis-a-vis religion. Being a Muslim isn’t just about reading the Quran and picking it off the cupboard shelf, and taking out the janamaaz five times a day… it’s surrendering your whole will to Allah. And that, i know for a fact, i have not done. So that’s the part that freaks me out. Do i make sense ? Let me know when my babbling starts. :clown:

haan yaar, Zimbardo sounds like a very cool prof. i’d love to take one of his classes, even just sit there if i don’t manage to get in. Would looooooove to have a prof like him…sounds like a very interesting individual/human being, not simply from an academic point of view.

nadzzz… hugz i’m also far far FAR from submission to Allah swt…

but yaar inshallah we gona keep trying :slight_smile:

nadz :blush: maybe if i get into grad school in Cali, then u can come down n we can go and audit the class together :hula:

[quote]
but yaar inshallah we gona keep trying
[/quote]

Insha'Allah.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by irem: *
**nadz : blush: maybe if i get into grad school in Cali, then u can come down n we can go and audit the class together : hula:
*
[/QUOTE]

That would be simply amazing. i would LOVE to hear this professor in real life. sigh

Islam or any other religion can not guarentee that its followers will behave in ethical manner under these curcumstances. In my view it is training.

The result shown at this experiment are quite interesting. But we can not compare these result of normal people with trained troops. Army is the institution which has the resposibility to train its troops to handle both kind of situations and remain calm when

  1. Being captive
  2. Controlling prisoners/civilians

Army train its troops for both kind of roles so that they are able to handle torture and reamin calm and composed when given powers.

American govt claim their Army is of highest standards both morally and in combat. One is brutally exposed.

Interesting, there is a chapter on this study in my brothers Psychology book.

nadz what a great coincidence yaar i got this email on my college’s msa list today…!


A few days ago someone forwarded the link of Zimbardo’s prisoner experiment conducted in 1971, which concluded that evilness in a prison was inevitable. However, how this conclusion was arrived it, and why the experiment took such a turn is explained by the devil lying in the details.

Alex Haslam, a professor of psychology at University of Exeter and editor of the European Journal of Social Psychology, and Stephen Reicher, a professor of psychology at University of St Andrews, past editor of the British Journal of Social Psychology and a fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, did a similar experiment in 2002 with the BBC and his findings were radically different. He also refers to Zombardo’s and explains the difference in conclusions. It is worth reading. Below is a link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3700209.stm

They had a similar experiment with a group of kids at a school, where they were told blue-eyed people are more special than brown-eyes ones. The next day, they switched the routine. Fascinating!

Zimbardo's Stanford uni Prison experiment and Milgram experiment----where the experimenters got the participants to give electric shocks to the person on the other side of the wall ( the shocks were fake) the whole point was how far would people comply in giving electric shocks even when they can hear the peron on the other side screaming in pain and most people went carried on giving shocks.

Anywyas both thses experiments plus half of modern day psychology is a result of attempts to justify and rationalize WW2 holocaust experience . Attempts to understand why people followed orders blindly, what made them kill other humans in such large numbers -- and the results of these experiments showed that in certain circumstances when the conditions are such-- we are all capable of gross inhumane and unjust acts. Its not just the Nazis from Germany who could take orders from their superiors and follow them with such gusto that they never thought twice . We are all capable of blindly following orders , not questionning the reasons . and sadly its true , looking at the state of the world today , the torture of prisoners goes on , not just in Iraq but in our countries as well . The difference however is that In western world everyone is eventually accountable for their acts but in our countries corrupt people get away.

In the meantime whats the use of conducting experiments ke oper aur experiments when no lessons are learned from them

:rotfl: the title of the thread is such a fabulous lure in for people . there’s been 249 viewings looking for males college students :rotfl:

Milgrams experiment was also done on 'normal' people. The result were quite shocking. The main reason was the experimenter encouraged them by saying he'll take the reponsibility. When you know you wont be held responsible, or if theres a collective social pressure to conform, its that much easier to cross the line and behave irrationally or evil.

Its well known that most people would conform into obedience if they are under authority. People who we would consider quite normal on any measure, can do very nasty things, when given the appropriate orders. I mean the excuse that the nazis used for thier actions was the same as the US soldiers, ' i was only following orders'.

interesting topic.

im starting my psychology degree in september. how interesting!!

and i finish this june . how sad:teary1: