PA so that is your problem you don't believe in Hadiths. I see so no further argument on that.
Btw you didn't answer my question.
I would like to hear a logical reason behind that. What about muthaa
“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*
ramyss,
Allah tells us in the Qur'an that Jesus asked his people to obey him. Christians would be on the right path to obey Jesus then.. right.
How do the Christians today know what Jesus preached? What to obey?
They consult the Gospels. Written about 70 to 100 years after Jesus and by different disciples as they could recall from memory what Jesus preached.
These are first hand accounts btw, not compiled by some Bukahri several generations later.
Now you tell me Christians are at fault for believing Jesus is God??
Why??
They are only following the Gospels.
and before you question the authenticity of them, beware that Bible Historians are far more active than Muslim Hadith historians and they have unearthed quite a few manuscripts dating back to original times of compilation.
Now you understand that just because Bukhari offered two rakat before compiling his Hadiths doesn't necessarily make Abu Huraira an authentic narrator?
Islamic history has problems of dissent and disruption at the very visaal of the Prophet.
Right there and then Muslims were divided in ansaars, aus-khazraj, and meccans and aal-e-muhammad.
To this day shiites contend that since they were busy with the burial services they missed the 'elections' in which Abu Bakar came to power otherwise Ali was destined to be the first Caliph.
You see where this is leading us? A history ripe with power struggles and rifts and full of munafiqeens and open to attacks from the age old Christian and Jew enemies.
If I wanted to malign religion A and knew they had a God given scripture, I'd attempt to distort the scripture and claim to have additional or different ayats. That's what happened as people claimed to have multipe copies of the Qur'an.
Leaders then compiled one, burning the other copies, not till several years later ONLY due to Allah's promise that he's made this book easy to memorize and has promised to protect it.
ALL sects agree that the Qur'an is complete. Even critics of Islam agree that it's an authentic document.
Now let generations pass and know that each party still has the claim to the 'right religion'.
For any perpetrator, this would be an excellent time to corrupt the religion by introducing false hadiths, allegations to the Prophet and thus damage the Book of Allah by forcing crooked interpretations.
That's how yahood and munafeqeen attempted to corrupt our religion by taking a back door and hitting at the Qur'an from a different angle.. 200 years later.
So judge for yourselves.. When a Hadith is presented, examine it YOURSELF.. see if it's true to the spirit of Islam and Qur'an.. not tradition.. if it's even slightly contradictory to what the Qur'an teaches, or explains, discard the Hadith, the chain of narrators and the compiler.
I did just that and arrived at the conclusion that very very little if anything is left reliable in the Hadith Domain.
Allah's Book is enough for all commandments. it's complete, consistent, has details of everything, made easy for us and in it, Allah has explained his revelations for us.
(az-Zumar 39:23) Allah has revealed herein Ahsan al Hadees (The Best Hadith); a book that is consistent, and points out both ways. The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for GOD's message. Such is GOD's guidance; He bestows it upon whoever wills. As for those sent astray by GOD, nothing can guide them.
Allah Knows Best
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)
[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited November 28, 2001).]
Are you refuting the Quranic verse that I mentioned?
All I can say is that may Allah help us stay on the right path, Ameen!
--
ramyssysIX
ramsys, first you haven't quoted the verse and second if you read my post again i'm trying to explain the 'obey the messenger' thing.
What do you know the Prophet said? how do you 'obey' him? where do you go to find his 'words'? Hadith books you'd say, right??
so read my post in that light please.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**ramyss,
Allah tells us in the Qur'an that Jesus asked his people to obey him. Christians would be on the right path to obey Jesus then.. right.
How do the Christians today know what Jesus preached? What to obey?
They consult the Gospels. Written about 70 to 100 years after Jesus and by different disciples as they could recall from memory what Jesus preached.
These are first hand accounts btw, not compiled by some Bukahri several generations later.
Now you tell me Christians are at fault for believing Jesus is God??
Why??
They are only following the Gospels.
and before you question the authenticity of them, beware that Bible Historians are far more active than Muslim Hadith historians and they have unearthed quite a few manuscripts dating back to original times of compilation.
Now you understand that just because Bukhari offered two rakat before compiling his Hadiths doesn't necessarily make Abu Huraira an authentic narrator?
Islamic history has problems of dissent and disruption at the very visaal of the Prophet.
Right there and then Muslims were divided in ansaars, aus-khazraj, and meccans and aal-e-muhammad.
To this day shiites contend that since they were busy with the burial services they missed the 'elections' in which Abu Bakar came to power otherwise Ali was destined to be the first Caliph.
You see where this is leading us? A history ripe with power struggles and rifts and full of munafiqeens and open to attacks from the age old Christian and Jew enemies.
If I wanted to malign religion A and knew they had a God given scripture, I'd attempt to distort the scripture and claim to have additional or different ayats. That's what happened as people claimed to have multipe copies of the Qur'an.
Leaders then compiled one, burning the other copies, not till several years later ONLY due to Allah's promise that he's made this book easy to memorize and has promised to protect it.
ALL sects agree that the Qur'an is complete. Even critics of Islam agree that it's an authentic document.
Now let generations pass and know that each party still has the claim to the 'right religion'.
For any perpetrator, this would be an excellent time to corrupt the religion by introducing false hadiths, allegations to the Prophet and thus damage the Book of Allah by forcing crooked interpretations.
That's how yahood and munafeqeen attempted to corrupt our religion by taking a back door and hitting at the Qur'an from a different angle.. 200 years later.
So judge for yourselves.. When a Hadith is presented, examine it YOURSELF.. see if it's true to the spirit of Islam and Qur'an.. not tradition.. if it's even slightly contradictory to what the Qur'an teaches, or explains, discard the Hadith, the chain of narrators and the compiler.
I did just that and arrived at the conclusion that very very little if anything is left reliable in the Hadith Domain.
Allah's Book is enough for all commandments. it's complete, consistent, has details of everything, made easy for us and in it, Allah has explained his revelations for us.
(az-Zumar 39:23) Allah has revealed herein Ahsan al Hadees (The Best Hadith); a book that is consistent, and points out both ways. The skins of those who reverence their Lord cringe therefrom, then their skins and their hearts soften up for GOD's message. Such is GOD's guidance; He bestows it upon whoever wills. As for those sent astray by GOD, nothing can guide them.
Allah Knows Best
**
[/quote]
Then I think you can't say I read a book of an Ignorant. Your final statement is:
Allah knows best.
That proves that you aren't sure about what you said refering to my post above.
Yes and ALLAH does know best. That's why I consider my post as an opinion or view.
I read this and if I read something else. Like Muzna's post then I will sure think about both. Some how I will try to gain more info on this.
“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*
PA,
Here it is again
I hope everyone is aware of this verse in Quran, "(O Muhammad (saw)) say if you love Allah then obey me, then Allah will love you". (I can't remember the chapter and verse number, you can confirm that if you want to).
The actual word used in this verse is "fattabeonee", which means "obey me".
Once we agree on this verse, then ofcourse there must be some information available to every Muslim regarding Hazrat Muhammad's (saw) life, using which we can obey him. Why would Allah say this otherwise.
I think that you need some serious think regarding "Sunnah". I would doubt at the character of a Muslim if he does not learn anything from the life of the last Prophet.
Wama Alaina Illalbalagh
--
ramyssysIX
Ok ramsy,
your third post.. u still haven't managed to get the verse number and still haven't even begun to understand the discussion.
Who said I don't want to follow Sunnah? I am of the belief that the Prophet lived his entire life striving in the way of Allah, delivering his message and providing the leadership necessary to establish a rule of Allah.
Tell me what should I do to learn what it was?
Unfortunately for me, Allah lifted the Prophet back towards him some 1300+ years ago, so I am left with reading about it right??
And here's my argument, The Books people throw at me to read his Sunnah are contradicting themselves and contradicting the teachings in the Qur'an. not in a subtle way, but blatantly enough for a doofus like me to question their legitimacy.
So I check independent sources and historians and critics and rabid haters and I discover quickly the degree of vulnerability of these compilations.
So I decide.. what me worry?? I have the Qur'an with me.. intact, infallible and detailing EVERYTHING. Allah left NOTHING out of the Book and if I follow it.. I'd be obeying the messenger because the messenger definitely did NOT have a separate agenda for himself. He was here to deliver the message, The Qur'an. His message was to obey Allah.
Now do you understand?? Those who wish to stress on the "obey the messenger" verses have hidden agendas they wish to propagate hiding behind the Prophet. When in reality if you follow the Qur'an you ARE following the Prophet and obeying the message he brought.
(Al-Imran 3:79) It is not (possible) for any human being unto whom Allah had given the Scripture and wisdom and the prophethood that he should afterwards have said unto mankind: Be slaves of me instead of Allah; but (what he said was): Be ye faithful servants of the Lord by virtue of your constant teaching of the Scripture and of your constant study thereof.
How are we required to be faithful servants of Allah??
By virtue of CONSTANT TEACHING OF THE SCRIPTURE AND OUR CONSTANT STUDY THEREOF.
Allah Knows Best
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)
PA, ONE QUESTION how do you know we pray the right way? To be precise, what is the right way? There are many hadiths who contradict each other on this issue.
So which do you follow? How do you distinguish between the "real" Hadith and the "others".
Is it written in the Quran, NO!
So how do you know what is the right way, if you don't accept every Hadith. Some you do some you don't.
“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*
Sarah Splendour,
This is not an aisle in a toy department, and i'm not someone who's going to watch you kicking your heels on the floor because you cannot get what you want or you just feel like making a scene.
If you would rather not change your mode of conduct, then this is not the place for you.
No one says you have to agree with all that is said by members on this forum, but neither do you have to select one comment out of many and decide to derail a thread by throwing a childish tantrum. If you have something you would like to say, an opinion, an experience, etc., go ahead, but please do so in a manner which is polite, calm and respectful.
Brother Ali,
What if around the 8th century, a Muslim person had written down sketchy details of how to perform Salaat after observing other Muslims. And in addition he'd have written down some other commandments too, Would his 'Book' suddenly become a source of Islamic Sharia??
Hadith Books are narratives and a compilation of Islamic History. They are NOT a source for commandments, because the Qur'an is COMPLETE and FULLY DETAILED and ALLAH explained it for us.
We should pray: That is important, which is why Allah REMINDED us in the Qur'an multiple times.
"Reminded" because all nations before us used to offer Salat. Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Noah, Solomon, Zakaria, Maryam and Jesus offered salat. Thus a 'tradition' is established. Knowledge is present of an act of 'praying' to Allah. Orthodox Christians and Samaritan Jews have similar Salat procedures.
That we have to stand, bow, prostrate and how we have to invoke Allah and recite Qur'an in our Salaat at specified five times a day IS mentioned in the Qur'an.
Preserved Tradition tells us of the procedures and count of rakats.
The argument stands, that the fact that Qur'an doesn't detail the number of rakaats does not automatically bestow the status of Sharia to ANY other compilation of the same.
Ali_R
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
=========
U all have gone offtopic…my question has been answered…so the rest of u if u want to fight open up a new thread…don’t mess this thread up…
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/mad2.gif
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Thanx Modamarator
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif
Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him say what is good or remain silent.
-The Holy Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)
and i thought this post was something to do with women visiting graveyards..
i can see that i was wrong.. it seems to be about authenticity of ahadith.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**Brother Ali,
What if around the 8th century, a Muslim person had written down sketchy details of how to perform Salaat after observing other Muslims. And in addition he'd have written down some other commandments too, Would his 'Book' suddenly become a source of Islamic Sharia??**
Bros, DOESN't answer my question. I asked YOU how you differentiate between both.
ith Books are narratives and a compilation of Islamic History. They are NOT a source for commandments, because the Qur'an is COMPLETE and FULLY DETAILED and ALLAH explained it for us.
You should be familiar with that most of ISLAM is based on tradition as well (Hadith).
We should pray: That is important, which is why Allah **REMINDED us in the Qur'an multiple times. **
True, but not listed how.
"Reminded" because all nations before us used to offer Salat. Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Noah, Solomon, Zakaria, Maryam and Jesus offered salat. Thus a 'tradition' is established. Knowledge is present of an act of 'praying' to Allah. Orthodox Christians and Samaritan Jews have similar Salat procedures.
Yes but still there is difference. So how do you pray and why do you pray like this? How do you know it's the way ALLAH (swt) told you to and not wasn't modified over the years?
What I'm trying to say is that if Hadiths would not have existed and if we would not follow them we would have more problems in interpreting ISLAM.
Though we have them, we still have to debate on different Islamic issues. Now Imagine having no.
Secondly Hadiths contain Prophets words (pbuh) and there are enough points which are not mentioned in the Quran. How you have to sit how you have to pray how you have to eat how you have to.....
That we have to stand, bow, prostrate and how we have to invoke Allah and recite Qur'an in our Salaat at specified five times a day **IS mentioned in the Qur'an.**
Yes, but not HOW to stand, bow and prostrate.
**Preserved Tradition tells us of the procedures and count of rakats.
The argument stands, that the fact that Qur'an doesn't detail the number of rakaats does not automatically bestow the status of Sharia to ANY other compilation of the same.**
No you are definitely right, but as I said we would be lacking of info without Hadith. So it's simply:
A implies B and B implies A.
Although A is the primary KEY of A & B!
[/quote]
Sorry went off topic.
“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*
[This message has been edited by Ali_R (edited November 29, 2001).]
So in your eyes, “preserved tradition” is more authentic than a book of hadith.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/eek.gif
Wow, I’m impressed.
I saw you debating on the authenticity of the second part of Kalima (Muhammad ur Rasoolullah), so what if take this part as a “preserved tradition”. Hadith is also a preserved tradition then.
[This message has been edited by OASis (edited November 29, 2001).]
**
Allaah has cursed women who visit graves and those who build mosques and place lights
upon them." (related by Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nisaa’i and al-Haakim) **
I think what I understand from this is that Allah forbids women from going to graves to place lights on them etc.I mean most women go to the graves of sufis etc to pray and to ask for favours.which is absolutely Haram and Shirk.So what is forbidden is shirk.And this hadith forbids these practices.I do not think it implies that woman cannot go to graves at all.
Guzar Ja Aaqal Say aagay Ke Yeh Nur
Chiragh-e-Rah Hai Manzil Nahi Hai
.
When you all can stick to the subject, we'll open this up.