haar, was the last line of my previous reply only thing you saw? didn't you see the whole paragraph that was before the last sentence?
714, in response to one part of your original post on this thread, true that it’s easier to tell if a female is virgin or not as compared to a male but even then a female’s vagina may break due to several reasons un-related to sex, such as say from excercise or other formsof strenuous activity, etc. In any event, who cares??? Honestly, if you end up married to someone who cares to see whether YOU’re a virgin or not while HE has ‘painted the town red’ so to speak, well missy, you’ve chosen the wrong kind of guy! I guess I can say this because now in my late 20s, I’ve talked to enough friends and others in my age group to realize that it truly doesn’t matter. A person should care about you for YOU, not for whether you’re a virgin or not.
In response to Faisal, you are quite mistaken if you believe that my views as well as views of certain others who’ve posted here are suddenly un-Islamicized since we’ve become so “westernized,” like you say. Since when does one thing (a moderate/rational perspective on sex from my view) have to do with the other (becoming as you say, “less” religious)??? There is absolutely no correlation between the two! I was born and raised here with healthy, strong family values and morals that are “good” from a HUMAN perspective rather than necessarily a Pakistani or American/Western perspective. I try to incorporate the best of both cultures as a Pakistani-American. Mind you, although I’d be lying if I said I pray 5 times a day and keep rozey all 30 days in Ramadan, I try my best to the extent that I can. I am a good humanbeing and I try to be a good muslim also. Hey Faisal, am I arguing with you about how fanatically religious you are??? You may not be but my point is, I am not making judgements about you so please extend the same courtesy back. Thanx in advance. 
Dear Guppies !!!!!
With due Respect!!!!!!!
Some One has said that Sex has nothing to do with Marriage!!!!!!
oy Piyarion!!!!!
Marriage is a legal way to do sex !!!!!
without marriage sex ki saza Islam main Sungsar hay !!!! Jo k Meray khial main sazaon main sub say ziyada sakht hay!!!!!!
Zina (Haan main is ko Zina hi kahon ga) Gunah-e-Kabeera main say hay yani aisay gunahon main say hay jin ki maafi mushkil hay !!!!!
And that why i think that it would be better to get first experience of sex after marriage not before that !!!!!!
Khush Raho!!!!
First of all I neither singled you out nor passed any judgements on you or anyone else. I made a general observation based on the views expressed here. You didn’t have to agree to the observation.
Secondly, I have no intention of engaging in a religious discussion here or in the religion forum. Lately, I try to stay away from such debates. Whatever you wish to do with your life is entirely your affair and your decision. You neither asked for advice nor one is offered here. If you want an “experienced” man as a husband, thats upto you. Does it make you less religious or not is something where only you can pass a judgement. I don’t have the keys to heaven or hell nor do I make the decision to declare you good muslim or otherwise. Whatever you consider “healthy, strong family values and morals that are “good” from a HUMAN perspective” is something only you understand.
My take on the whole issue is that to each his own. You get what you deserve (in most cases).
Personally I neither condone pre-marital sex nor extra-marital sex, both from a religious point of view and also from a moral point of view. There is a valid reason why all divine faiths consider such sexual activities as a sin. You can come up with your own theories about this and are most welcome to it.
Moona-i agree with some of things you have to say. You make some good points. and what i was saying was that i know of guys, while they are playing the field and doing whatever, want a girl that clean and decent-b/c she is that way-not because they have changed for the good etc. I don't want to start a religious fight/debate etc in here. But its a big part of it for me, b/c its part of the reason i feel the way i do about outside of marriage sex. You talk about limits-for me religion is what is setting my limits. I mention guys, b/c i am a girl, it was just reaction. But yes, it definately goes both ways-girls do it too. You are right about other forms of breaking the hymen. as to who cares? I do. It is a different matter if they aren't a virgin due to divorce or something. But just randomly, cause they can't control? I definately care and i know a lot of my girlfriends care. You're absolutely right though in that they should care for you, because you are you. Often times, though people get along with people best when they are on the same wavelenghth about issues like this. I also understand, as a person, and actually religiously, i have absolutely no right to pass judgment on anyone-i ll be the first to admit that i am not sinless. I do respect your right to your opinion though.
tassavur-see i'm scared of that kind of thing. How did you feel about it?
pakbeast-we should meet;) no i'm just kidding, but what you said, i admire. thats how i feel. Well, I don't really have a problem refraining-and thats not to say i havent't had feelings for ppl,etc, like you said, i have also had the oppurtunity. But how hard it is, is definately a personal control issue-be it US or anywhere.
pyaricgudia-i guess that can be true also-its all up to Allah who he forgives and who he doesnt
malik zulfi- :)
Faisal-dude, im with you here.
Fret Wizard-I enjoy your comments here and in other threads
To people annoyed with this post, don't read/answer it. I don't know, I haven't talked with guppies about it yet, so I am doing so now. I am sorry if I have offended anyone, that was never my intention. On this whole west vs. whatever else-I was born and raised in the US. I argue with my parents about a lot of dual culture issues. Sex is NOT one of them.
If your conscious allows engaging in pre-marital sex, and you feel perfectly OK without the emotional distress, then do as much as you please. If the guilt-bag is too much to handle, then you are better off saving for whenever you are ready or after getting married. You may find yourselves in situations where walking away may not be that easy, but if you manage to do just that, it would certainly make you a bigger and better person, since you did not fall prey to your own lusts. Numerous studies have concluded that the couples that indulge in pre-marital sex have one of the highest rates of divorce. I don’t know, maybe they just get to know everything about each other, and then get sick and tired too soon. Just a friendly advice.
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*Originally posted by 714: *
tassavur-see i'm scared of that kind of thing. How did you feel about it?
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Well to tell u the truth, i really didn't appreciate it but he was my husband what could i say, I did ask him a few questions that I think I was entitled to know considering I was married to him..........I don't know I guess it's expected of men. It's hard to swallow though, despite the fact that he didn't have intercourse he said he had experimented. I guess it's a curiousity thing, needless to say if sex is not available there is always pornograpy, these things are so readily available which is kind of sad to say, it takes the whole love aspect out of the act and turns it into just pure lust.
714, I’m glad you are taking insight from our posts here. I’m happy to see that it’s helping. By the way, girl, I admire you for holding out on sex until you’re married even though you’re born and raised here, like me, in a country where opportunity to have sex exists left right and in every other direction possible…and in a country where most girls and guys “give it up” when they’re still in their teens (yes, I am referring to desi young people). The thing to remember is that everyone has his/her own perspective on this topic so my advice to you re: sex is: do what YOU feel is right. You seem like an intelligent young woman and I feel that you think about this issue along the same lines as I do, for the most part. You’ll be alright, kiddo!
Faisal, understood! Glad you clarified by sharing that “to each his own.” One comment: I agree with you that from a religious perspective, pre-marital sex (and extra-marital sex, although that’s not the topic of discussion here) is haram is all monotheistic religions, and like you said, there’s a reason God forbids pre-marital sex. I believe that, apart from the whole determining paternity of the child concern (which is a valid reason no doubt), the reason may also be so that the persons having sex do not get hurt emotionally as perhaps feelings may become involved. I’m not too religious (I’m mid-way religious I guess, if that makes sense?!) but I agree that God has a reason for everything. 
Lastly, self-respect has a lot to do with how one behaves sexually. I strongly believe that. No, I don’t mean having sex always in a missionary position or that type of thingymajiggy. I mean that if one does in fact decide to have sex before marriage, it is important to first think about it with a clear head instead of jumping into things rashly or in the heat of the moment or with a lot of different sexual partners. 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fret Wizard: *
Marriage has nothing to do with sex? Interesting.................
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I thinkkkk his point is marriage is way more sacred. Although in our culture both members should be pure... a marriage is the meetings of souls and minds not just bodies...
Why is this such and issue now a days.. I mean as muslims we know its worng so why keep on beating a dead issue? Seems to me the newer generation seems to be pre occupied with it...
I mean people there are ways to have fun w/o sex... for god sakes stop obsessing over your spouse's past even before you have a spouse...
I mean whats the solution to this? Ask your potential hubby.. hey btw you a virgin? one you never know if he is honest (and btw you can tell) and two I dont think it'll sit to well with him or his family...
Interesting Topic. Moona, I agree with your points. Damn we think quite alike. Still I would like to add some of my own words. Everyone is entitled to their own views so am I. Here I would purposly like to leave out the religious aspect of things as it has already been covered and I agree with it.
I think in general the whole SEX issue is over-rated. People are so obsessed with having sex and not having sex, who has done it and who is doing it. I mean give me a break, its not your business! It's a personal matter of each. If your partner has done it or not, it should not be such an issue, if it is why did you not ask before you got married.
If I had to choose a partner who has had sex and one who is virgin, I would take the first one. Simply because virgin guys are like rabbits after marriage. I have heard that virgin guys have no control over themself after they get the ticket (Nikkah) to do it legally. They go crazy with so much freedom and sometimes their wifes get fed up with it ALL! Something I would hate to myself. No I like guys who are in control and not some wild beast, thinking he is entitled to whatever he wants with his wife. For this I would take an experienced guy but not a total jerk for myself.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
What is this bullcrap about virginity that pops up every 5th week here on Gupshup. What is such a big deal? Guys have penis that gets hard, and girls have vaginas. These things are designed for sexual purposes. Marriage has nothing to do with sex. If you can’t figure that out, you shouldn’t get married.
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sure one can have sex within or without a marriage, and issue is not a virginty here, its about how people think they should be when they get married and what they think about the their partner. its not only virginity issue here.
Saadia, wow we’re a bit too alike, girly-girl! In addition to your point on wanting men who are not virgins, I would think that men who are “experienced” would not only actually KNOW what they’re doing (in bed, but of course) but would probably know and care about how to please their partner as well, which is important since both parties need satisfaction, one just one! 
I would think that men who are "experienced" would not only actually KNOW what they're doing (in bed, but of course) but would probably know and care about how to please their partner as well, <<<<
same goes for experienced woman. There’s nothing more satisfying than an experienced babe.
Moona, it's some kind of connection we have, I can feel it. :) I agree with your point, and I think that non virgin guys are not so much obsessed with sex like virgins guys. My observation has been that experienced guys do it and get over with it and go on with their lifes, where as virgins guys are mostly in a state of confusion.
Enuff of this topic, me heading home. See ya!
**>>Simply because virgin guys are like rabbits after marriage. I have heard that virgin guys have no control over themself after they get the ticket (Nikkah) to do it legally. **
Even giving it the latitude it deserves because it is ostensibly a gross generalization, this remains too absurd to be swallowed. :)
Going by the same logic, an experienced man may determine, based on his experience, that you are such a bad loser in bed that he wants to leave you and check someone else out … something that an “inexperienced” man will never complain about.
***>>If I had to choose a partner who has had sex and one who is virgin, I would take the first one. (SaadiaB)
My ideal man is experienced with sex but with a limited # of partners. (moona)***
When you girls try to blur the line between what is good and what is sin, essentially what you are saying is that "yeah we know our Creator prohibits this activity, but we think its not only alright but is also a good and desirable trait. After all we know better than the one who created us".
Had the two of you been atheists then I wouldn't even bother responding here cz then we won't have any common ground. But knowing what I know, the thought process expressed here is quite troubling.
I just hope all of you get what you deserve. :)
Faisal :) there are many things when it comes to religion, that we do which are not allowed. We were discussing this topic not on behalf of religious teachings thats why I responded beyond religion. If a guy has had pre-marital sex even we know its not allowed in our relgions should I hate him for it ? No I don't because we all know that we all make mistakes. Who are we to judge.
Where as virgins guys being rabbits, at first I did not believe it myself, but I know of a couple where the man literally made his wife have sex with him constantly every night that she even collasped. I have noticed this thing many times. If you think its a gross generalization, well for you maybe but not for me.
For me I am not saying a virgin guy is something bad, but some virgin guys are even worst that non virgins guys in my eyes.
Allah only knows best, Insahallah we hope to get what we deserve, like all of us.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SaadiaB: *
If you think its a gross generalization, well for you maybe but not for me.
.
[/QUOTE]
I have to agree with Faisal here. It's quite the generalization. Sure you've probably seen that "virgin guy" scenario many times, but it surely doesn't mean they are all like that, and you surely don't know every desi virgin guy to make that assumption. That's no different from westerners calling all muslims terrorists because of a few bad apples.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by SaadiaB: *
I know of **a couple* where the man literally made his wife have sex with him constantly every night that she even collasped. I have noticed this thing many times. If you think its a gross generalization, well for you maybe but not for me.
[/QUOTE]
Enough said! :)
I know several couples who were both virgins before they got married and have little interest in sex even now. Does it make a valid statement? No. It will be a stupid assumption that because I know 2, 3 or more couples who are like that, then it means all of them are also like that. But then again, this is a time-wasting topic. I have no intention in further prolonging this debate because there is no point in doing so.
There is a difference between accepting people who sin, and not to discriminate against them for what they are or being judgemental ... however it is totally another to actually praise them and find them better than those who abstain from sin. That was the only thing in the whole topic which stands out as discussion-worthy.
NY Ahmadi, so you find an “experienced babe” as you put it, preferrable to a virgin girl since she wouldn’t necessarily be ‘a dead fish’ in bed. I am a virgin too but you know what, knowing myself very well the way I do, ummm…who knows?..I might be quite the cat in bed (my horoscope fire sign Leo will attest to that! Hehehe…) It’s all how one looks at things. I will repeat…bottom line is that one must be secure and confident within himself/herself before taking any action, sexual or otherwise. What do you think, Saadia? 
No I don't because we all know that we all make mistakes. Who are we to judge.<<<
SaadiaB, Is it just me or does anyone else finds this funny? You have already judged this act to be a “mistake”, and then you go on to say “who are we to judge”? I just find it so funny. Pre marital sex is not a ‘mistake’. Sex is an intimate and personal matter between two (sometimes more) people, and it should be enjoyable and not looked down upon. Everyone regardless of their martial status (I hate this term, as if marriage brings Status to people) should get a good F once in a while.