VIOLENCE - Religously Sanctioned or Random

Hafeez12345, big difference between Inspired and Sanctioned.

In either case, Religion does not (in this case, Islam) encourage violence let alone sanction it. It is the interpretation by interest groups that make it appear that it does. If there is a small segment of society that uses Religion as a scapegoat to explain its unmanly deeds, there is at least a 1000 times larger segment of the society that does not. So, it is confusing what you mean by Sanction or even Inspire. Watching some b-rated TV debates will make it appear that Islam is an evil religion, but knowing a million peace loving Muslims leaves a differet impression.

I think the biggest reason for violence is ignorance.

NYAHMEDI

A good response.

Well done.

Horror! Shock! "Kafirs" like NYA are defending Islam. How could it be?

/sarcasm

Thank you for your comments!
Islam is the product of the scriptures; The scriptures are not evil; ** what is evil, in any creed, are the interpretations that the scholars ulemas have given it!**

Majority of any race, nation are usually innocent but they often are willing followers of their leaders - to the death, often invoking the names & goodwill of their Gods. The German race **was not ignorant **but willing followers of the Nazi dogma and their charismatic leaders and NEITHER were the perpetrators of the 9/11 acts!

Let me translate your comments into a recent act etched in our memories:

According to you:

  • 9/11 was the act of a few; it was not inspired by the scriptures nor sanctioned by it either!

  • The Ummah, represented by their ulemas & muftis, condemned 9/11 without reservation; only a handful of muslim ulemas praised the 9/11 attack.

  • When West set up an alliance to go after the perpetrators, majority of Ummah supported it & aided it; those who issued fatwas condemning those muslims & muslim states that offered support to the christian-lead coalition were in the few.

  • The ulemas of Pakistan supported Pakistan’s alliance against the muslim Taleban!

Unfortunately, I reject the above!

See, if you can find the inspiration for the 9/11 in the following:

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘**None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" **

Bukhari 4:52:73 The Prophet said," Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords."

  • “[at-Taubah 9:123] O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that God is with those who fear Him.”

  • “[Al-Imran 3:100] O ye who believe! If ye listen to a faction among the People of the Book, they would (indeed) render you apostates after ye have believed!”

  • “[at-Taubah 9:29] Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”

  • “9:28] Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque”

  • "[9:29] Fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews), who do not accept the religion of the truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (penalty tax) by hand, being inferior. "

  • "[8:60]Strike terror (into the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies "

  • “[9:14] Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and Allah will punish (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame”

  • " [8:12] I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah"

  • "[8:17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing. "

  • “[al-Ma’idah 5:33] The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter”

How about another translation:

  • When the quran & hadiths says:
    "women are 1/2 of men;
    Women can be punished for disobedience …;
    women are majority in hell because they have disobeyed their husbands & not served them well’

It is not sanctioning degradation of women.

Unfortunately, I do not subscribe to this view-point either!

A common miss argument by non muslim about Islam in particular is the history of islam both early on during the life of Mohommed (slww)& subsequently as recent as 1800 the days of last moghul emperor Zafar exile death in Rangoon

Now during the life of prophet he fough in Jang audh & jang Badr so many fights in Alis & hasan & hussains life against Yazid for succession of legitimate heir of Khilafa & so non & so forth

Why do non muslims blame muslims of having VIOLENCE in there religion or Islam any moe than say in christian kingdoms fights of all the kings of europe, russia ,england …the mode of fight was dagger & …which are bloody painfull death …horrible as it may be ..not b/c of islam or religion of islam being violent

If the presence of war or blood & violence in Islam is is endorsement then in Hindus unlike the vegterianism & ahimsa of Gandhi one form of Hindu is totally different than mythological (or history of hindu religion)KALI was murderous with blood dripping from her mouth & dagger all wet with blood of her own husband.The mahabharata is also about fight between the Pandav & kaurav ..the Durga is also shown in violent murderous posture riding LION with trident & in mood for some blood!!!

Now why cant the Hindus realise that there is no more violence endorsed in islam than me going away with stories & images of god in blood thirsty posture making me believe …my hindu friend is going to murder me ???:confused: :confused:

So in my opinion most of these crticism is due to selective quoting or focussing narrowly on selective areas of vast history of each religions & wrongfully thinking that which is wrong.

Hafeez123

As I had mentioned in a prevoius post.

Can you please give a breakdown of Period of Revelation, Context and Synopsis of Contents on the ayats that you have conveniently quoted!

Namely:

  • "[at-Taubah 9:123] O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that God is with those who fear Him."

  • "[Al-Imran 3:100] O ye who believe! If ye listen to a faction among the People of the Book, they would (indeed) render you apostates after ye have believed!"

  • "[at-Taubah 9:29] Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

  • "9:28] Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque"

  • "[9:29] Fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews), who do not accept the religion of the truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (penalty tax) by hand, being inferior. "

  • "[8:60]Strike terror (into the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies "

  • "[9:14] Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and Allah will punish (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame"

  • " [8:12] I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah"

  • "[8:17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing. "

  • "[al-Ma'idah 5:33] The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"

If you have problems doing this, please let me know, so that I may do the job for you!

For starters, heres a helping hand, just in case you are struggling with their meanings!!

Revelation (noun of Reveal)= 1. make known.
2. expose or show.

Context = 1. circumstances of an event or fact.
2. words before and after a word or sentence that help make its meaning clear.

Synopsis = summary or outline.

Content = 1. meaning or substance of a piece of writing.
2. amount of a substance in a mixture.
3. what something contains.
4. list of chapters at the front of a book.

This way I will know how much 'real' knowledge of the Qur'aan you truly possess.

Peace.

[quote]
per sholay:
"Hafeez123

As I had mentioned in a prevoius post.

Can you please give a breakdown of Period of Revelation, Context and synopsis of Contents on the ayats that you have conveniently quoted! "
[/quote]

sholay,
How the quran & sunnah/hadiths is supposed to be followed has been CLEARLY laid out in the fiqhs of Islam and on matters where ulemas have to make ruling they refer to existing sources of quran, sunnah, qiyas (precedence on matters that they know of) & ijma (consensus amongst the members of the council).

They- the ulemas would laugh at you if you asked them to provide references to:

  • breakdown of period of Revelation;
  • Context
  • synopsis of Contents

They will think that you are trying to impress them or trying to tell them that the quran & sunnah is wrong or RESTRICTED to a certain period of time. Are you - sholay?

Sholay,
help us out by providing all the above but more importantly EXPLAIN in your own words what they mean - just so that we know you have read what you copy & paste!

Thank you!

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
*

.......

  • The ulemas of Pakistan supported Pakistan's alliance against the muslim Taleban!

...... **
[/QUOTE]

you are a joker, aren't you? do you read what you post? or you just post without thinking?

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
*

.....

They- the ulemas would laugh at you if you asked them to provide references to:

  • breakdown of period of Revelation;
  • Context
  • synopsis of Contents

....Thank you! **
[/QUOTE]

No, they'll probably laugh at you. Scholars have tried to understand and explain Quranic verses in context of the situation/time they were revealed in. Do you read their books or did you hear this from someone?

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
*

They- the ulemas would laugh at you if you asked them to provide references to:

  • breakdown of period of Revelation;
  • Context
  • synopsis of Contents** [/QUOTE]

Anyone with a modicum of knowledge of Qur'anic sciences will know that understanding the context and reasons behind why a particular verse or chapter was revealed is vital to correct Qur'anic interpretation. This is called "Asbab an-Nuzul" (The Reasons for Revelation) and books have been authored on this important topic. It is true to say, however, that the understanding that one derives from a verse is not always limited by the circumstances in which it was first revealed.

And Allah knows best.

Iqbal

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
you are a joker, aren't you?
do you read what you post? or you just post without thinking?
[/QUOTE]

In a way - I used the tongue & cheek approasch to respond to New York Ahmedi. I reversed the logic in all not just the one you have pointed out!
What about the others? You don't think they are true- now, do you, silly man!

Here read the whole section; remember they are tongue & cheek; the truth has been reversed:

[quote]
from hafeez123:
*According to you: *
- 9/11 was the act of a few; it was not inspired by the scriptures nor sanctioned by it either!

  • The Ummah, represented by their ulemas & muftis, condemned 9/11 without reservation; only a handful of muslim ulemas praised the 9/11 attack.

  • When West set up an alliance to go after the perpetrators, majority of Ummah supported it & aided it; those who issued fatwas condemning those muslims & muslim states that offered support to the christian-lead coalition were in the few.

  • The ulemas of Pakistan supported Pakistan's alliance against the muslim Taleban!

*Unfortunately, I reject the above! *
[/quote]

Let me guess, now you have issue with this as well! Too bad!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *

No, they'll probably laugh at you. Scholars have tried to understand and explain Quranic verses in context of the situation/time they were revealed in. Do you read their books or did you hear this from someone?
[/QUOTE]

And, your point being what ?

I am sure there is a point, what is it?

Let me guess - ‘the context & reasons’ decide if these verses are valid today as per your ‘modicum of knowledge’!

that would make most of the quran out of CONTEXT!

The main theme of those highlighted Quranic verses can be found in these two hadiths. There are others more specific but the CORE message is in these two:

Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah 's Apostle said, " **I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)" **

Bukhari 4:52:73 The Prophet said," **Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords." **

-The quranic sciences are in these hadiths/sunnah.
-The tafseers are centred around these sunnah/hadiths.
-All the Islamic jurisprudence are based upon these sunnah/hadiths!
-They do not care much about your ‘modicum of knowledge’; nor are you expected to use your ‘modicum of knowledge & intellect’ to question, defy or challenge!

Thank you for your input!

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
*

The main theme of those highlighted Quranic verses can be found in these two hadiths. There are others more specific but the CORE message is in these two...**
[/QUOTE]

This statement suffices to show that you actually didn't understand what was being asked of you in the first place. Let me repeat Sholay's earlier quite sensible request: "Can you please give a breakdown of Period of Revelation, Context and Synopsis of Contents on the ayats that you have conveniently quoted!". Citing additional hadith (even though they may be on the same topic in your view), as you have done, doesn't at all provide the context and circumstances for why the verses you cited earlier were first revealed. You do understand what is meant by the "circumstance of revelation"? The Qur'an, in case you hadn't realised it, wasn't revealed in a vacuum. It won't really get you anywhere if you keep ignoring the fact that there are reasons behind a verse's revelation and that Qur'anic commentators quite rightly take these reasons into account when interpreting those verses (through the science of 'Asbab an-Nuzul').

Iqbal

No scripture is revealed in a vacuum!

[quote]
from Iqbal:
"Let me repeat Sholay's earlier quite sensible request: "Can you please give a breakdown of Period of Revelation, Context and Synopsis of Contents on the ayats that you have conveniently quoted!".
[/quote]

We are all waiting fro sholay to enlighten us about all that!

[quote]
from iqbal:
"It won't really get you anywhere if you keep ignoring the fact that there are reasons behind a verse's revelation and that Qur'anic commentators quite rightly take these reasons into account when interpreting those verses (through the science of 'Asbab an-Nuzul').
[/quote]

The reasons for those verses are applicable today as the hadith says:
" I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah"...

The commentators do not make the laws. The ulemas do and they are based upon the quran & sunnah!

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by hafeez123: *
*

We are all waiting fro sholay to enlighten us about all that!**
[/quote]

Yes, perhaps Sholay can enlighten us, since it is plainly obvious that you haven't been able to.

[quote]
*commentators do not make the laws. The ulemas do and they are based upon the quran & sunnah! *
[/QUOTE]

Did it perhaps cross your mind that many of the Qur'an commentators were in fact ulema? I can't think of a single classical Qur'an commentator who wasn't a renowned scholar. Sorry if that disappoints you.

Iqbal

Iqbal,

I am not sure what points you are trying to make ?

The islamic laws do not REFLECT the curent time;

They always reflect the 7th century or How the prophet lived his lives i.e. the sunnah!

Look around - Do you see us in the current time or the 7th century?

Even mentally - we are stuck in the past!

Hafeez123

I know your'e waiting in vain for the 'enlightenment'. But just bear with me, as an in depth response to the ayats you quoted will take me about 2-3 hours of typing.

I am trying to find this time and God Willing will do this within the next day or so.

Not all of us are glued to the net 24/7, and some of us are actually humans and do have businesses, families and other daily activities to run.

Either that or I may disappear for a few months to another part of the world, like I usually do.

Nevertheless, you'll be very very surprised and grateful for my lesson!

Hafeez 123

As promised, here is the lesson of your life.

Please read, digest, read, digest, read and digest again!

Moving onto the ayats, that you famously quoted. Let me take you back to school for the time being.

AT-TAUBAH

"9:14] Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and Allah will punish (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame"

"9:28] Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque"

"9:29] Fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews), who do not accept the religion of the truth (Islam), until they pay tribute (penalty tax) by hand, being inferior. "

“9:29] Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Just for the record, you’ve posted the same ayah twice, hoping it was a separate ayah!!

"9:123] O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that God is with those who fear Him."

This Surah takes its name from the word At-Taubah (The Repentance).
This is the only Surah of the Qur'aan that to which Bismillahi'r-Rahmani'r-Rahim is not prefixed. This is because it opens with an acquittal from and a nullification of peace treaties with the associators and disbelievers. As such, the use of Bismillah, which grants protection by the name of Allah, would have been contrary to the nature of the subject matter of the Surah.

The theme of the Surah is to encourage and enable the Believers to give final crushing blow and to suppress forever the three evil forces, which were working against Islam at this juncture of time.

The associators and the disbelievers at and around Mecca, who were still hoping that the Believers might suffer a defeat at the hands of some outside power.

The activities of the hypocrites of Medina and the People of the Book, who were in league with the disbelievers of Arabia as well as with the representative governors of the Roman Empire in the boundary areas to the north.

Next in line were the rulers of the Roman Empire itself, who had taken notice in Hijra 8 of the growing power of Islam, when at the expedition of Mu'tah under Zayd ibn Harithah they had to employ as many as one hundred thousand soldiers to face a Muslim army of only three thousand!!!!

The first discourse of ayah 1-37 was revealed in Dhu’l-Qa’dah of Hijra 9 soon after the Prophet SAW had sent Abu Bakr and 300 of the Believers to Mecca to perform Hajj. The discourse contains a proclamation, ayah 1-12, of acquittal of any previous obligation of Allah and His Messenger for the protection and safety of those associators and disbelievers who had broken their solemn pledges with the Believers. The proclamation contained a notice of a four months period after which all treaty obligations with such pagans were to be dissolved.

In ayah 13-16, the Believers were exhorted to fight against disbelievers who broke their pledges, who purposed to drive out the Messenger of Allah from his home and who were the FIRST TO ATTACK THE BELIEVERS AT BADR!

The discourse of ayahs 73-129 was revealed in Sha'ban of Hijra 9, when the Prophet SAW had returned from the expedition of Tabuk.

In ayah 28-29, the Believers were exhorted to fight in the way of Allah against the Associators, the Jews and the Nasara of Arabia and of its adjoining areas, who had been duly warned of the consequences of their inimical and mischievous behaviour of ever breaking their solemn pledges with the Believers, and of ALWAYS seeking opportunity to WIPE OUT ISLAM.

In ayah 119-123, general instructions were given to the Believers for their guidance and betterment!!!!! Read them Hafeez, read them!

AL-IMRAN

"Al-Imran 3:100] O ye who believe! If ye listen to a faction among the People of the Book, they would (indeed) render you apostates after ye have believed!"

This Surah takes its name from the phrase Al'Imran (family of Imran). Imran was the father of Moses and Aaron, the progenitor of the family from which were born the Prophets and Mary, the mother of Jesus.

In order to understand properly the background of the revelation of the Surah, keep in mind that immediately after the victory of Badr, in Hijra 2, the small city-state of nascent Islam at Medina was beset with all sorts of internal problems of organization and external dangers of attacks by the Quraysh. These problems were expected, but to those were added the serious threats of insecurity through the machinations of hypocrites, and mischievous breaches of alliances on the part of Jewish clans who lived all around the vicinity of Medina. The Jews got so furious over the defeat of the Quraysh at the hands of the Believers at Badr, that they openly began to incite them and other Arab clans to attack the Believers. The foremost in this respect was the Jewish clan of Banu Qaynuqa!

The discourse of ayahs 64-120, opens with a strong appeal to the People of the Book to believe in the Unity of Allah.

In ayah 100-104, the Believers are instructed regarding their own conduct in order to be true Muslims and are asked to be watchful against the malicious intentions of the People of the Book against them.

AL-ANFAL

" 8:12] I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah"

"8:17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing. "

"8:60] Strike terror (into the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies "

This Surah takes its name from the word Al-Anfal (Anfal is a plural of nafl, meaning additional or supererogatory service or reward). Here Anfal is used in the sense of spoils of war, considered as bounties from Allah. The Surah was revealed following a period of about one month after the battle of Badr, which took place on the 17th of Ramadhan of Hijra 2.

The Surah, in addition to providing a comprehensive review of the battle of Badr, enunciates general and moral principles of conduct for the Believers at a time when they are actually engaged in war against their enemies, or are having a state of war, or a period of truce with them.

In ayah 5-10, regarding the battle of Badr, the Believers were reminded that the truth of the matter was that Allah had ordained that they should face the armed host of the Meccan Quraysh and inflict upon them a crushing defeat by His succour. ‘ So that He might establish the truth and prove falsehood to be false, though the guilty might abhor it’.

In ayah 11-14, the Believers were further reminded of Allah’s succour, they received even before the beginning of the battle.

I ayah 16-18, the Believers were reminded of an event that took place during the battle of Badr. After the single bouts, when the two hosts were to meet, the Prophet SAW took a handful of dust and threw it towards the enemy camp, saying may their faces be scorched. At the same time he signaled towards his followers who then attacked the disbelievers in a body. This was in reply to Abu Jahal, the leader of disbelievers, who provoked Allah’s judgement saying: O God, grant victory to that party which is in the right, and humiliate that one which is the aggressor.

In ayah 60-62, the Believers are commanded to keep their armies fully prepared to meet any sudden or treacherous attack by the enemy. But if the enemy should be inclined to peace, the Believers should reciprocate.

AL-MA’IDAH

"Al-Ma'idah 5:33] The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"

This Surah takes its name from the word Ma’idah which occurs in ayah 112 of the Surah, where it refers to the request made to Jesus by his helpers to ask his Lord to bestow upon them ‘ a table spread with food’ from heaven.

The period of revelation of the Surah is at the end of Hijra 6 and the beginning of Hijra 7, with the possible exception of ayah 3.

In ayah 33-43, in order to prevent crime on a large scale, the Qur’aan has enjoined exemplary punishments for offences such as treason, manslaughter and highway robbery, but towards those that repent and amend their ways, Allah will relent. It is also emphasized that the Believers should exert their utmost to establish the Right Way of Life as revealed to them in the Qur’aan.

Take heed and study!

The real irony is that according to your logic, on one hand the learned Ulamaah would laugh at my discourse, when you were asked for the info. And on the other hand, you are using this post for your ‘enlightenment’, when you asked me for the same info.

Look on the bright side. At least this is a good way of admitting your shortcomings, without actually admitting it!

Work it out.

Maybe you can change the name from Hafeez 123 to ‘Mullah Enlighted’.

In future, think twice before posting ayahs of which you have no knowledge about.

Finally, this ain't no copy'n'paste, it's from a source called STUDY!!!!!

I know it sounds like an alien word to you, but believe me, it's out there!

I'll leave the copy'n'pastes for the likes of you.

‘Give credit when it’s due, or the repo man will be after you’.

Sholay,

What conclusions have you drawn from the background of these surahs and hadiths that I listed? That is what I was looking for; but, ended up getting copy & paste! Pls read what you have posted and co-relate those with the following:

-Do they ( surahs, hadiths) apply today?
-Have the rules - as listed by various ayaths & hadiths changed?
-When a jihad is declared, like - let's say by OBL - do those surahs & hadiths apply to the full extent of the law?

These surahs are what we would call today - Rules of Engagement!

Even despots/briggands/warlords have their "own ways" to deal with their enemies. How are these surahs any different?

*The theme of these Surahs & Hadiths is to encourage and enable the Believers (Muslims) to give final crushing blow and to suppress forever the three evil forces, which were working against Islam at this juncture of time. *

The only difference is - one calls these 'crushing laws' - Divine, while the others rightly call it - their own.