I’ve just been watching a program on how Pakistani wives are burnt/killed in Pakistan because they are unable to give their husbands a child. It was very hard to watch what these women go through and how the socity seems to accept this as part of life? Did anyone else see this - either way what are your views?
(This was on in the UK)
So tolerant about this, yet so intolerant about other deviations and perceived deviations (at least those a woman commits) from the norm. Basically, in today's society in our countries, whatever happens it's a woman's fault and she has to pay.... that seems to be the attitude! I do not think such behaviour can be excused on any religious or moralistic grounds - the fault is poverty, igonrance and prejudice.
Funny, a while ago I was talking with some Pakistani friends who told me that such things could only happen in an ignorant society like India, but not in an Islamic country like Pakistan, whre women were accorded the respect due because of religious beliefs (yes, I have my tongue very firmly in my cheek!). I always felt that the reason we never heard about it was simply - censorship! Thank you for confirming my suspicions, Azhar.
Yes azhar, I think I watched part of the same programme you mention. It was all about the abuse and mistreatment of women in Pakistan and it was hard to watch. It is one thing that these terrible acts are going on and the murderers/abusers are unaccountable, but another thing that upset me was that the men who were abusing/murdering the women were justifying it in the name of Islam. This is pure jahilliyah (ignorance).
i watched it saturday night and found it sickning it was about adultery and islam i always thought Allah was the one to punish to judge us ??? who do these men think they are???
Man and i mean males have totally distorted the meaning of islam they make up there own rules hand out their own punishments
but they themselves are exempt from all this
did u see that burnt 16 yr crying out in pain who died soon after, 16 yrs old what life had she seen, what had she experienced???
it is man who has given Islam a bad name, all my mother ever goes on about is how Islam has given women so much freedom they don't have to work etc etc and that the west does not understand this and think that Islam is suppressing women, the west does'nt understand and neither do men, one rule for them and one for women. Its all done in the name of Islam!!!!
i'm not condeming all men but its those filthy animals, scum of the earth that need to be.................
i'm glad i watched it but i was disgusted by it and ashamed that things like this happen in my religion, the innocent ones always suffer.............
its these jahil's that have no respect for others a life is a life , just the way you love your life that is how the next person loves their's , no human has the right to take away anybodies life, He the one who gave us this life can take it away. what can we do to help, fair enough human rights are trying to do something about it in the big cities but what about small villages???? what can be done there???? a little bit of education for the women to understand to stand up for themselves ???? but then they will be condemed for doing muqabala!!! why r men esp in pakistan scared to see a women think for herself???????? it is a women that makes a man otherwise on his own he is nothing
I may have gone off the point a bit but i do feel strongly about this and the other thing mentioned was Zina now that law should be abolished because at the moment the men just seem to be abusing it. But i suppose that is something else to discuss
[This message has been edited by ferhana1 (edited January 25, 1999).]
You are So Right Ferhana.I share your disgust completely. I think Eastern Chauvinism has found an illegitimate home in our good relegion Islam. The Zina Law also needs to go as soon as possible.
Stud
Ferhana : I understand your feelings but please look more into the religion and find out the answers for yourself instead of heresay. TV is by no means a source to find out about the religion, it is the Quran. I agree, there is a lot of crap going on in Pakistan in the name of our good religion. If you back your strong feelings about the current atrocities against the women with examples from the quran that are otherwise then it will help other people understand what the true Islam says and what these idiots are doing is incorrect. Blaming Islam, our religion, based on heresay is a very uneducated thing to do.
And all this goes for you too, STUD.
Later on
Zman
[This message has been edited by zman (edited January 25, 1999).]
salaams to everyone....hope u all had a great eid..ive just returned to gp after a short break..well working my b**t off.!!
anyways..i too watched this prog..very disturbing..i have read articles on domestic violence in pak. before...around 80% of pak. women have suffered some form of abuse..quite shocking...and walking down the streets in pak..one can percieve such negative attitudes of men towards women..when these men stare at us..and even try to touch us..i have experienced this myself and cannot comprehend the dirty minds of some people..i do not wish to sound anti-pak or anything but this is the state of muslims today...although we live in a patriarchal soc. which encourages male domination and abuse of this position to the detriment of women...this happens in all societies..not just in pakistan...in uk there are many cases of battered wives..but as we are refering to pak.and also let us not forget that any opportunity for negative portrayel of islam is ceased by the media..this prog highlighted this..when have they ever presented achievements of past and present muslim women?? women are oppressed. and we often find ourselves fighting for our rights, but we need brothers like azhar to stand with us in this struggle..inshallah..we will succeed.. and the oppressors will be punished...going back to my concerns these are with the behaviour of muslim men..i believe that the reason for this is due to ignorance and disobedience to islam..the most beautiful truth..ever revealed which elevated the status of women..stopped the burial of baby girl..gave women their rights..a man is not allowed to beat his wife in any circumstance only a token form of beating with a miswak..!
and this is to be used as a final sanction!! the men who mistreat their wives will be punished for their evil acts, but we as muslims must review our attitudes towards women..and give them the respect and rights they are due..we can only do this by submitting to islam..
down with the molvi!
but ooops.. i'm a kafir :)
Jewel, I wouldn't quite go that far - but it would not be wrong to say that the Maulvi's have a lot to do with this as well as the society itself. Getting in the wrong books of the Maulvi can be very bad for you. I have heard of cases where innocent people have been accused of being kafirs and as a result being killed. Everyone follows the Maulvi because he is assumed to be knowledgeable and he knows/has studied the Quran and therefore there is no one who dares questions the Maulvi.
I would not say that I have studied the Quran in detail (I would sadly put myself in the bracket of those who have read the Quran blindly!), but I do know that the Islam in some areas in Pakistan is not the Islam that has been given to us in the Quran and the Hadiths. The main problem in Pakistan is that there are not that many people educated in Islam (a lot of people have read the Quran - but that is all - our biggest disadvantage is that most of us do not understand the Quranic Arabic) - so they blindly believe what the Imams/Maulvi's say - I am not saying that what most of the Imams teach is wrong it is just that there is always that bit of interpretation which can make the difference.
As Zman has said, we need to look into the Quran for guidance and not to these idiots who misinterpret Islam to suit their needs.
And yes Dreamerno1, it wouldn't be news for the media if there wasn't anything anti-Islam coming out of Pakistan - that is what sells. You know as well as everyone else that there are a lot worse things that go on in the Western Society - but these do not get reported because firstly it would look bad on the Western Society and Democracy and secondly there is a hidden agenda in the West which is to try to bring out the image of Islam to be a backward religion. As you would know from watching the program the underlying diea of the documentary was to show how backward Islam is and far behind the times it is as compared to the Western Society.
dear azhar,
big respect.
vague ideas...
obscure prophecy...
influence...
helplessness....
.....
black jewels...
of insignificance.
I agree with you all, and also am disgusted by the oppression of women, half of our population, falsely suppressed in the name of religion. I agree with Stud, the Zina laws in Pakistan must go!
In terms of hope, I urge all to (as zman pointed out) look into Islamic feminism. There is a great number of authors from the Islamic world who are contributing to an ongoing debate regarding the rights of women in the Muslim societies (ie Leila Ahmed, Fatima Mernissi). We should also refrain from making generalizations. Women burned in Pakistan through a subversion of Islam are quite different from women in Azerbaijan or Indonesia (whom although I am sure are also subjected to different forms of abuse).
I say that because its easy to see Muslim men burning their wives in Pakistan and make the tremendous leap of idiocy and start to discuss Islamic societies in general and their acceptance of this barbarism.
Unfortunately women have become a SYMBOL for Muslim men to use and abuse. Women are a political symbol and are used in the preservation of culture as well as religion.
I was speaking to a friend about this topic and he maintains that this TV program is anti-pakistani propoganda..... would those who have seen it please let me know if they think this could have been so. Thanks.
i don't think there was any propoganda
the unjust acts that these women suffer was just bought to our attention
No, it wasn't anti-Pakistani propoganda. It was follow up on something that was picked up by journalist about a year or so back. Its just a case of bad things attracting audiences. I am sure things like this happen all over the world -it may not be so severe but it does happen. The problem is that we as Pakistanis can't bear to face up to the fact that such things happen in our own country.
Assalam Alaikum
I watched the programme too. What disgusted me about it was how the programme was edited to make it anti-Islam and not anti-Pakistan. It proved the point that Pakistan is not an Islamic country and no doubt it was propaganda but anti-Islam not anti-Pakistan.
For those who didn't get to see it, the main theme was the injustice done to women at the hands of men. The men weren't shown as being Pakistani men but Muslim men and the injustices weren't shown as being injustices that exist within the Pakistani society but they were shown as injustices that supposedly exist in an Islamic society.
In one shot they would go to a Muslim women school where the women said they wanted to be ruled by Islam, and in another they would go to an ignorant man with his philosophies- made up in his head- and definitely not Islamic, to show him as being a typical Muslim man. He had the cheek to say that women are intrinsically flawed and the reporter showed it as though this was an Islamic idea. It was edited in such a way so as to make women question themselves -what are they going to get out of Islam?.
Anyone who watched the programme would be made to think that Islam oppresses women not the fact that the Pakistani society oppresses women. Also what was so weird about the programme was that they didn't show a single muslim man educated in Islam.
Assalam Alaikum
[This message has been edited by Mudasser (edited January 28, 1999).]
Aslam Alaikum Azhar Bhai,
I have also seen a documentary (perhaps the same) on BBC television last week saturday the 23rd of January about women raping, killing, burning and punishment in Pakistan in the name of ISLAM and HONOUR. I was very hurt to see all this happening in Pakistan. Pakistan a moslim and a democracy country Where the laws of F.... Mullans are valid and not the laws of Allah-O-Tala (those mullans who will go stright to the hell according the Hadith. Insha-Allah) There was also a shatan,harami, kutta,khanzeer ki olad, kafir yahzeed who killed his wife because she had an affaire with someone. So he killed her like many people do in the name of honour and ??? in the name of Islam. When he killed his wife he got prisoned after ? paying a buffalo he was free like a bird and telling the story to the BBC presentator that he was very proud that he killed his wife for his honour. He showed the gun he shot his wife. Later told the presentator that that this kutta, harami, khanzeer ki olad, kafir yahzeed was married with his own sister. WHYYYYY didn't he killed him self in the name of honour or in the name of Islam and WHYYYYY did the socity didn't killed him. Keya un ka HARAMIYOON ka zameer bhi mar geya hai. Keya woh mard hai to usse kehne ki kissi ghiratmand ko himmat nahin hai.If you do kill this bastard that's Islam and honour.
Insha-Allah when I'll find this person I'll kill this person and all other who insult Islam and our country. (if someone will help me to make me easy I'll be thankfull in the name of Allah-O-Tala)If you want to do Allah -O-Tala is to your side. I have recorded this documentary. If someone really want this documentary to take action against this kind of thing you can get it. (the man who married his own sister was speaking in Saraiki language according to my brother)
In some way I,m agree if they do to a women, but if a man does such shamful thing, these bastaards must deserve the same punishment like women and thats Islam. In Islam what bad is for women is also bad for men. If the one get punishment then the other one must be too).
Dear Azhar Bhai, sorry for my English, first of all I do not have time to write, because I'm working at office, too much emotionally breakdown after seen this documentary, Feel very shameful beeing a Pakistani. These people destroy all our honour as moslim and as a Pakistani.
(I,m crying)
As-Salaam 'Alaikum,
Have patience Jahangir. The men who have hurt or killed their wives/daughters in the name of Islaam will answer to Allaah (SWT). As for the innocent women, then their reward lies with Allaah (SWT), and he is the Most Just.
Killing these ignorant men is not the answer. It is like trying to swat a swarm of flies - true you will get some, but many more will survive to spread their diseases. Besides, these men are still Muslims. Granted they may be ignorant ones, but nonetheless, they are still Muslims. This means that their property and blood is Haraam to other Muslims.
Rather, we should educate our people with al-Islaam. It will take time but patience has its rewards. Look at the struggles that the Prophets had to go through. They came across the most evil of people but had patience in Allaah (SWT). Look at the Seerah of our Prophet Muhammed (SAW). He exercised extreme patience with the Kuffaar of his time, and as a result Allaah (SWT) made him victorious. He (SAW) is our example to be followed.
My sincere advice to you is to learn your Deen, then teach your family and those closest to you. This is from the Sunnah of our beloved Messenger (SAW) and those who followed him in righteousness.
I too saw the programme and was disgusted and angered by the ignorance of both the Pakistanis and the Western producers of the programme. However, this does not give me the right to kill a man because I have hatred for him. That is what the Islaamic Sharia is for. Unfortunately, the Islaamic Sharia is being abused in Pakistan and has failed these innocent sisters, so our only choice is to be patient until Allaah (SWT) returns the honour to the Muslims and establishes Islaam in our lands.
Also, as a correction - the man did not marry his own sister. He married the young sister of the man with whom his wife allegedly had an affair with.
May Allaah (SWT) guide us all to the Haqq.
Wa Salaam.
As Abu Mohammad says, this problem (and most others in Pakistan) are as a result of a lack of education. If the people were educated to a reasonable level then they will (inshaallah) be able to distinguish between right and wrong. I am in no way trying to condone what these people do BUT I do think that if they were able to think for themselves then things would not be so bad. At the moment a lot of the problems are as a result of someone doing something because if they didn't they would lose face in front of everyone else and secondly as it has been mentioned above - the lack of education.
I think one of the better things that has come out of living in the "west" is that the education system and the whole surroundings allow us to think for ourselves - we maybe wrong in some of these thoughts but at least in some situations we are able to assess and as a result conclude that the problem can be resolved in another/better way without causing harm to anyone.