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*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Wrong. The definitions of freedom of religion, speech and press are constantly being redefined in a democracy, trying to find the right balance. There is a constant backlog of court cases, pending bills and laws regarding the practice of these freedoms in a democracy.
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Why does it need to be re-defined? If laws are set and these laws are international not just depending or implemented on one STATE, then who gives them or us the right to re-define it?
You keep tough eyes on MUSLIMs,spy them out 24/7 and then talk about freedom?!
Changing international laws for your own sake is also a loss of freedom!
Wow. There is evidently quite a misunderstanding of what democracy is around here. Not surprising since most hail from countries with no history of democracy.
There are no international laws for freedom of religion, speech and press. If there were, 90% of the world would be in constant violation. There is no absolute in these areas because each of these freedoms can step on the freedoms of the other.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Wrong. The definitions of freedom of religion, speech and press are constantly being redefined in a democracy, trying to find the right balance.
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You mean African-Amercians could be deprived of their democratic rights for 175 years by the white majority, and thats what you call democracy being constantly redefined? If democracy and everything associated with it was good enough for the white man from from 1789 to 1964, why was it not good enough for the blacks? Give us a sound democratic reason for that?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Wow. There is evidently quite a misunderstanding of what democracy is around here. Not surprising since most hail from countries with no history of democracy.
There are no international laws for freedom of religion, speech and press. If there were, 90% of the world would be in constant violation. There is no absolute in these areas because each of these freedoms can step on the freedoms of the other.
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Dude, freedom of press and speech are laws made by whom? A government? You mean one country has its own press and speech laws? No, either you have them or you dont!
Btw living since almost my 1st year of BIRTH in EUROPE does make me more DEMO than you as being a BORN in USA puppet !
I hate to burst your bubble, but American blacks were not categorically denied all their democratic rights until 1965. Granted, in the south there was not fair play in the voting process, but it was far from apartheid.
The reasons for this are cultural and traditional- including racism, bigotry and power brokering. Thank God that US had the democratic foundations to allow for these black Americans to integrate into the system.
Ohioguy has presented yet again a thoughful, reasoned replies to all the childish premises posted here. If this were a debating contest, OG has absolutely crushed what can hardly be called the "competiton". Harvard vs. Podunc Technical College...Muhammad Ali vs. Chuck Wepner...Tiger Woods vs. Stevie Wonder.
I know that some posters don’t like to let facts interfere with a good anti-US argument, but here are a few facts to chew on:
Black Males were given voting right by 15th Amendment in 1870 (50 years before women of any color were given the right to vote)
There were approximately 325 black southern legislators in 1872, the height of the Reconstruction era. (By comparison, in 1972, the number of black southern legislators was 60, and in 1992 it was approximately 275).
In 1874, blacks held the majority of seats in the South Carolina legislature.
During Reconstruction between 15 and 20 percent of the state officers and 6 percent of members of Congress (2 senators and 15 representatives) were black.
In 1870, Louisiana elected its first black lieutenant governor
In 1901, the first black was appointed to a judgeship by a U. S. President
In January 1870, Hiram R. Revels was the first black elected to the US Senate. Interestingly, he filled former Confederate President Jefferson Davis's position
Freedoms, civil rights and civil liberties are not things that just appear out of nowhere. Nor are they things that once obtained are guaranteed to remain with you forever. They are things that democratic people seek and struggle to attain and then need to be ever vigilant to protect. OhioGuy has provided a great analogy that covers America’s transition from slavery to where we are today. The seas have occasionally been rough and the ship has listed on occasion; but it has always righted itself in a fashion to promote freedom, equality and inclusiveness in ways no other country on earth can claim.
Storch: you seemed to have missed the way it works. You have to keep repeating illogical statement in the hope that they might come true. OG indeed had nailed it in the very first page. But sometimes, the hmaster falls asleep at the wheel.
As far as the combatants you mentioned you forgot US vs. Iraq. :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by storch: *
Ohioguy has presented yet again a thoughful, reasoned replies to all the childish premises posted here. If this were a debating contest, OG has absolutely crushed what can hardly be called the "competiton". Harvard vs. Podunc Technical College...Muhammad Ali vs. Chuck Wepner...Tiger Woods vs. Stevie Wonder.
Keep it going! It's fun yet hard to witness.
OG for President!
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Thank you for participating in the competition I'll fit that into the childish category. This is how your Govn. works one talks other follow regardless of what is wrong and what is right. Good going!
Thank you for participating in the competition I'll fit that into the childish category. This is how your Govn. works one talks other follow regardless of what is wrong and what is right. Good going!
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No prob! If you think that after reading both positions in this post, one who who sees the clarity, dare I say stultifying sanity and superiority, in the arguments of OG and MV, must be a sheep then I say to you ,sir, that you have insulted the cognitive ability of the noble sheep. And, I for one will not stay silent....BAAA AAAA AAA!
Thank you for participating in the competition I'll fit that into the childish category. This is how your Govn. works one talks other follow regardless of what is wrong and what is right. Good going!
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Where from any of these posts do you get that US govt talks and the people follow?? This thread describes the exact opposite. US has evolved into the democracy it is because of public dissent.
If you want an example of people following the government blindly, look at Iraq where the Butcher of Baghdad receives 99.9% of the vote.
Yes, it took 175 years to “evolve” into a full democracy. Along the way you saw 74 years of slavery, followed by 101 years of American apatheid known as segregation. That whites-only regime was ensured by the**“Jim Crow” Laws**](http://www.nps.gov/malu/documents/jim_crow_laws.htm).
What you don't seem to be grasping is that the evolution of US democracy is still not finished. Picking a point in time to deride the system is fallible. It is the strive towards and adhering to the changing will of the people and socitey in general is what makes America the most successful democracy. And it is still going.......
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
What you don't seem to be grasping is that the evolution of US democracy is still not finished. Picking a point in time to deride the system is fallible. It is the strive towards and adhering to the **changing will of the people and socitey in general is what makes America the most successful democracy. And it is still going.......*
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Exactly and I see no CHANGES, nor in society nor in ppl and nor in politics!
Perhaps we lack a little historical perspective here. Societies change overtime. As MyVoice showed, blacks did indeed participate in US politics, even though this has been ignored in further discussions. But the US has a huge multi-cultural society, and soon "minorities" will outnumber whites.
Rather than draw the conclusion that democracy is not in force, I choose to believe that societies throughout the world change and evolve, and that democracy is a vehicle that both allows this change to occur, and measures and formalizes the change. Slavery was wrong, apartheid was wrong, not allowing women to vote was wrong. Human beings are sinful and fallable, including United States citizens. No one has claimed otherwise.
You missed the entire point of democracy. It is a system of beliefs. It is a set of values. It must be refreshed and renewed and challenged and reinvigorated on a regular basis. As challenges and changes rise in a society a democratic system of administration of the society will allow conflicts to be resolved within a framework of law and justice. There is no guarantee of perfection, democracy simply increases the odds that ultimately positive values will prevail, and creates a path where wrongs can be corrected.
Back to my sailboat analogy. A sailboat seldom charts a straight course. Even when sailing a "straight" course the sailboat may have to tack back and forth repeatedly if the winds are against it. It does not mean that it will not reach the right port, simply that the journey will be long and difficult.
If you say so. Carry on living in denial and singing the praises of the confederacy…